cake decorating questions

Sorry if these are dumb questions...

  1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into each other? Any precautions to take?

  1. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing (above)?

TIA,

-L.

Reply to
-L.
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Ideally the cream cheese frosting should be refrigerated. It is unlikely that the colors will run more in the refrigerator than if left at room temperature. That said, there is so much sugar in the frosting that it is unlikely that it will spoil if left out over night.

When in doubt it is always best to discard food products. But, since there is so much alcohol in vanilla extract, it is unlikely to make you sick. One way to flavor the frosting would be to use vanilla powder. I don't know of any way to flavor it with the bean except to put a whole bean in the sugar and let it sit for an extended time.

Reply to
Vox Humana

Thanks - will take everything under advisement.

-L.

Reply to
-L.

As Vox said, best to refrigerate, although left out on the counter it shouldn't immediately spoil. However, one thing I thought I would add is that if the cake is to be transported a fair distance, especially by car, you definitely should refrigerate because the icing will soften if left out and could sag or run during transit if unchilled. Furthermore, soft icing has a notorious habit of sticking to boxes, shirts, knives, anything that gets in contact with it.

Very minor terminological point: if the covering is fairly soft and fluffy, then technically it should be called a "frosting", where an "icing" would be a harder, shell-like covering.

Absolutely. Using the milk base, what you do is to scald the milk, split the vanilla bean and scrape into the milk, then steep both scrapings and bean in the milk for about 10 minutes or so - long enough for all the little seeds to become totally separate instead of clumping. Then, chill the mix. When chilled, fish out the bean and scrape off clinging milk and bits back into the milk, and discard the bean. Then use the milk as usual. Your icing will end up with inviting black spots in it indicating the use of real vanilla.

If you have to have a pure white icing (e.g. for a wedding cake), then steep the bean for longer - about 30 minutes, and at the point where you're discarding the bean, run the mixture through a fine cheesecloth (coarse won't do) or very fine sieve. This should get rid of the seeds, if you absolutely must not have them in there.

Reply to
Alex Rast

snipped-for-privacy@peacemail.com (-L.)WROTE: Sorry if these are dumb questions...

  1. Is it ok to leave a cake that is decorated with an icing made from butter and cream cheese, powdered sugar and water (or milk) out on the counter overnight, or should it be refridgerated? If I need to keep it in the fridge, will the colors of different icing run or bleed into each other? Any precautions to take?
  2. My Spice Islands brand "pure vanilla extract" looks cloudy. I tasted it and mainly taste alcohol - should I just toss it and start anew? Is there a way to use real vanilla bean to flavor the icing (above)? TIA,------------------------------------------------ My Response: No matter how much I get flamed by this reply & I do get flamed I go by what an retired food inspector through our local board of health taught us in the food safety & handling course I took at a top rated community college in culinary. ANY food item with whole milk , butter,& eggs are to be stored in the fridge PERIOD. If any thing this gives me peace of mind & steers me away from these products in grocery stores with listed ingredients stored on open non refrigerated shelves.
Reply to
ms. tonya

I concur......HACCP is always in the mind of a competent food processor... Indeed past experience confirm that you can ge the dairy rich decorated cake and when done just allowing it to stand in ambient overnight....but food safety rules must prevail specially if we are producing food items for other peoples consumption.

Food items that have a a high water activity should be kept under refrigeration.

Reply to
chembake

Agreed, sorta. A bit too extreme for most baked goods.

I don't understand this.

Absolutely. But they must be applied knowledgeably.

Too sweeping a statement. Pickles are a good example of foods with high water activity that can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations of pH, water activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

Pastorio

Reply to
Bob (this one)

LOL...my Midwestern upbringing is coming out. My Mom always called it icing no matter what it was. Thanks for the clarification. :)

Thanks for the info. I will file it away for later use. This frosting will be colored so flecks aren't an issue.

Thanks to all who replied. :) I think I willl stick the cake in the fridge overnight and then take it out in the AM. The party is at noon, and I am making the cake the night before.

-L.

Reply to
-L.

I would add re: following as much as possible HACCP even when you don't have the health dept looking at you. Although I seem to have been blessed with an iron stomach many are not. At particular risk are folks with compromised immune systems. It has disappeared from the news but HIV is very much continuing to spread and a large number of people have hepititis C. I have a friend with Lupus and another who had an organ transplant and several who are on chemo. Many times these conditions are unknow to others so it's helpful to me to try to assume someone in a group I'm providing food for may have a compromised immune system and act accordingly.

-Marylouise

-L. wrote:

Reply to
mlouise007

.>I don't understand this That is reasonable You had never been a baker but presumably just academician .....therrefore you never had first hand experience in cases where occasional violations of HACCP rules works...

.>water activity that can safely be stored at room temp. The combinations .>of pH, water activity, preservatives and processing are the determinants.

Pickes?....bakers and pastry cooks don't deal with such items.... . Normally bakers don't add any preservatives in cake icings nor have to use most of the time high processing temperatures ..( for example in boiled icings) Its common for these tradesmen to make icings at room temperatures... In addition to that pH is not an issue with cake frosting materials either

..

Reply to
chembake

I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I meant I didn't understand the sentence.

I had my first restaurant job in the early 1950's when I was in grammar school. I started my first restaurant in 1974 and have owned several others since; I've run country club and resort operations, and consulted about all phases of foodservice. I'm also a published food writer.

Understood. But for room temp storage, it's not just water activity that matters, even for pastry. Cheeses and eggs provide opportunity for bacterial and mold growths, for example.

Fruit curd fillings generally have a reasonably low water activity and low pH, but molds can grow on them rather quickly.

I agree with all these clarifications, but the simple rule of just being concerned with water activity is misleading. Filled breads and pastries use other foods that can support both spoilage and pathogenic bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we should be careful with all of them.

Pastorio

Reply to
Bob (this one)

I'm a chef with 30 years of experience, including pastry. I meant I didn't understand the sentence.

Well.. . I worked in the food industry for decades and I know how chef's think....in my observation they are good cooks and know how to manage the kitchen but not competent enough to think ..in scientific fashion .and sometimes forget to implement food safety procedures ..in their day to day chores.. Just think about this, after years of training, experience and even schooling, occasionally food poisoning still occurs...in their kitchen...

So with all that experience ...do you think that you are already qualified to talk about HACCP? Besides What does being a food writer have to do with food safety rules...? Food journalists who are also chefs a....IMO (and even from observation in some certain chefs who become writers ) .usually focus on English composition and grammar than the food safety in their kitchens... During your formative yearsin the kitchen I doubt if such NASA derived food safety rules did ever came to the minds of your mentors....and if you absorbed the habits of your traditional teachers ...its unlikely that you will change instantly due to changing trends...in food processing rules.. I had met and seen so many chefs in my career ....an its often that in the old and highly experience chefs ,old habits are difficult to change specially for high ranking chefs that have egos as huge as a blimp...

Pastry?....yes they had lower moisture content and so have lower water activity values compared to cakes and bread due to the high amount of fat but they are still susceptible to spoilage..for example ...the .pastry casing is for meat pie but even when baked it does not prevent it from getting spoiled ...Meat filling juices may seep into the casings cracks and crevices increasing the moisture content and hence the water activity....

Cheese and eggs used in general cookery usually results in moderate to high water activity in the finished products , aside from the fact that they provide an active culture media for microbes .... because of that pathogens can live and multiply in them.......compromising food safety of the finished food item.

Well molds can exist with slightly lower water activity than bacteria and so is the fruit curd and fillings which have moderate Aw( water activity) values which are highly subject to mold and yeast fermentation ( which incidentally like to live in moderate water activity). Bacteria lives and multiplies in higher water activity values ...but when bacteria weakens or dies due to the lowering of water activity...the molds,fungi and yeasts takes its place....actively. .

It only means one thing. IMO... I am sorry to say that you don't have a deep understanding with water activity.,and its importance in food processing. .Anyway .Its not surprising as its pretty common with many highly qualified chefs...and most of them scoffed at them including some cookery school instructors .who don't follow what they preach to their cookery students in the culinary school. ...just a few years ago....I met a well known chef who scoffed at water activity and related terminology and became complacent (in the his cookery methodologies that pertain to food safety) in his kitchen Incidentally his HACCP program was found to be faulty. by the food safety auditor /inspector and was never modified after continuous warning... from other inspectors who visited his kitchen in the past. ...He scornfully told the inspector... I had been running this restaurant for more than three decades and still I never did have any serious food related incident that led my restaurants closure... Further He sneered at them and said.....Stick your water activity (and stringent food safety rules ) into your arse ! A few months later his kitchen and restaurant were shut down due to a large number of people who were hospitalized from salmonella poisoning...from contaminated food eaten during a banquet in his restaurant......

I had seen a number of restaurant in many places that succumb to this kind of complacency with disastrous results to their restaurants, and their reputation.

pathogenic >bacteria and molds. I'm saying that we should be careful with all of them.

Breads in themselves have high water activity..in the vicinity of

0.90's .so it can still be attacked by bacteria such as the bacillus subtilis/mesentericus which causes rope and that is already considered as spoilage.... Fillings in bread are sensitive to spoilage, it can be meat and dairy based ; and both have moderate to high water activity as the low to moderate amount of sugar but low salt and the usual absence of humectants( which binds water) does not decrease water activity much and therefore don't prevent osmophilic bacteria ,molds and yeast from attacking it causing it to spoil....Once fermentation sets in the water activity values can increase due to the breakdown of food structure increasing the water content of the spoiled food leading to other microbes ( including pathogen to attack it)..This chain reaction can led to a food hazards in many cases and people that are highly sensitive can be the first to fall ill. Even this so called jam fillings which can have water activity values IIRC of 0.60-0.70 is still not immune to these hardy organism....And certain people that are allergic to certain mold toxins are the first to succumb to it. Even your pickles with higher water activity can still be attacked by halophilic ( salt loving ) bacteria ....However as of now I have not heard of any body that is allergic to these salt loving bacteria ( or I may not be aware of it happening elsewhere ) .The fermentation by products can make food unpalatable....and a spoiled pickle can then taste awful... Many kitchen personnels may find these water activityAw, equilibrium relative humidity (ERH ) terminology as too academic ..and useless in practical situation but they are wrong! ..

I had been in the food processing industry for decades and although in baking,patisserie and confectionery are my field....I still exercise care when preparing food for institutions and have to remind myself often....water activity is ubiquitous in the food industry

Sorry Bob ...we may differ in our opinions regarding the relevance of water activity in the general food processing...

Reply to
chembake

My undergraduate degree is in English with a biological sciences minor. I had originally started university as a pre-medical student only to discover after a few years that while I liked and was a very good student of sciences, moving into medicine proved to be an area that I decided I didn't like. My background in science is good.

You have no idea how I or my people worked. You have no idea about anything of my professional experience. Please save your insults.

Yes. I do. I have routinely dealt with local, state and federal inspection agencies and conformed to their standards. I and all my employees had to go through the courses offered by all health departments for food service operations. I've taken the Better Processing course administered by the Food and Drug Administration and have had my food manufacturing operations subject to their inspections.

It has only this: in order to be considered a reliable source by the publications I've written for, the information must be good and the sources must be checkable. You should read my article about "Food Additives" in the Oxford University Press Encyclopedia of American food and Drink. It's partly about food safety.

Please stop trying to diminish me and my background. I don't really care what you think of chefs and writers. That's your opinion and appears only to be negative in an attempt to make yourself seem more knowledgeable. A scientist waits for evidence.

What are your opinions about bakers with so little confidence in themselves that they need to try to insult others by innuendo?

Pastries filled with cheeses and custards are what I was referring to. Moderate water activity and good base for bacterial action and molding anyway.

I own a commercial food processing business operated with a very careful and professional system. We make infused and flavored oils, seasoned and infused vinegars, fruit juice curds, chocolates, breads and pastries (filled and unfilled), hot sauces, brine mixes and seasonal products. I've consulted with many food scientists in the course of formulating these products and have gained a good understanding of what the issues are for all of them.

I'm so happy for you that you are able to feel superior to someone. And I admire your style of insult.

Generally around .95

Cakes - .9 to .94 icing - .76 to .79

Jams and jellies - .82 to .94

I appreciate your offering all this information in support of my original position that water activity alone isn't the only concern for food safety. That maintaining food safety requires a more sophisticated view.

Establishing a system for kitchens that make sure good safety practices are followed means that the cooks don't really need to understand the complex biological, chemical and physical conditions. They just need to know what to do and how to do it in accordance with the appropriate principles. I want cooks with sympathetic kitchen hands, not academics.

Of course. There is no other way.

Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.

No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial issue. But it's not the only issue.

Pastorio

Reply to
Bob (this one)

I was a molecular biologist for 15 years and have had advanced coursework in micro, mycology and molecular biology, to name a few. I have never heard of "water activity" as being a factor to be considered in whether or not an organism will culture on a particular medium. Must be a food science term he's hung up on, or something (honestly I have never encountered the term.) His entire diatribe seems pretty simplistic and, franky, dumb, to me, as so many factors need to be considered - pH, available sugars, carbs sources, salt concentration, light, heat, aeration, etc.

-L.

Reply to
-L.

Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups. He does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful.

But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys it!

Dave

Reply to
Dave Bell

It is. It's essentially an index about how much water is available to colonizing organisms. Not how much water is in the particular food, but how much of it isn't bound. In food science, the lower the index number (ranges from 0.0 [no water] to 1.00 [water]), the less water there is for the metabolic needs of any critters; so reduced viability for culturing in food products. Points to shelf life and storage requirements. High water activity and low pH means refrigeration.

"Control of water activity (rather than water content) is very important in the food industry as low water activity prevents microbial growth (increasing shelf life), causes large changes in textural characteristics such as crispness and crunchiness (e.g. the sound produced by 'crunching' breakfast cereal disappearing above about aw =

0.65) and changes the rate of chemical reactions (increasing hydrophobe lipophilic reactions but reducing hydrophile aqueous-diffusion-limited reactions)."

Exactly. That's why I said there needs to be more consideration than merely water activity.

Pastorio

Reply to
Bob (this one)

I can see that he's devoted a good deal of thought to it.

I have several good recipes for...

Nevermind

Thanks.

Pastorio

Reply to
Bob (this one)

snipped-for-privacy@TheSPAMFREEBells.net (Dave=A0Bell)WROTE: Bob, Roy (Chembake) often has a lot to offer here in these groups. He does have a great deal of experience, and his insights from a biochemical point of view are frequently very helpful. But, don't get into an argument with him. As I believe Sam Clemens put it, it is like wrestling with a pig: you get muddy and the pig enjoys it! Dave----------------------------------------------- Response: Wouldn't it be nice if Rose Levy Beranbaum got involved with this NG.

Reply to
ms. tonya

Well that is the difference...a molecular biologist don't consider food to be an important subject to study but the microbes itself.......

During my microbiology course works..in the university days ,.my first teacher was a molecular biologist..He talks what we consider an abstruse..language. to the class that he failed to get us interested in the subject matter as he delve more in theoretical aspect of cell structure, metabolism, genetic matter and other deeper aspects of cell biology... without even relating its importance to practical application.... One of my classmates asked the instructor....what is the importance of this theoretical cell biology discussion to food processing...we know already the basics of cell biology and biochemistry and we are not graduate students ....that we need to tackle your specialized discussion head on... ...?

There seems to be a gulf that hampers our absorption of the subject matter.....Can anybody do the lecture to our own level...? ..The ,majority of the class supported the demand therefore . .The dean relented as he realized his mistake of assigning a specialist person...therefore organized for another teacher to handle our microbiology class. The guy that replaced was a food scientist .(so much the better. We agreed)..He ( the new teacher incidentally was actually practicing food microbiologist .....Therefore that eliminated the' gap'..and enabled the class to realize the importance of such terms for example the water activity in food processing

.light, heat, aeration, etc.

LOL!...silly you.... If you consider this dumb ,,,,,its your own fault as you don't grasp the concept of water activity from the point in food science ....

As science become more specialized....there are common terminologies that have different meanings or interpretation from the different disciplines

Now regarding the other parameters that is also considered....but what is found in the food formulations is the targeted water activity...the formulation will indicate what are the available carbs, salt concentration, and other lesser factors that can affect microbial growth

Reply to
chembake

Well everybody had its own preconception what a chef is ...unfortunately its always not good...as some of the most popular jokes are denigrating in nature... BTW It is being asked in some circles ...why does the chef wears a toque...

One funny answers are .... to hide his shortness and to look tall to other people...and also to look smart and respectable even if his head is full of hot air..!.

Really.... Previously I read a lot of books about food additives and food safety but never heard your name.. I am sorry...

Hmmnn......I still don't consider myself to be that knowledgeable....nor I want to denigrate your status an English major that became a food writer or science teacher who became a chef.... we are in the same boat I am just a chemist that became a baker...then a /patissier / and lately a confectioner

Insult...? .little confidence....? that is a presumption.... Bakers normally are not as egocentric as chefs..but we banter a lot....there is no point being serious when we 're just overgrown kids that want to play with the dough for a living....

That sounds sensible.

Its nice to know.....that you are notch higher than an ordinary chef of any typical restaurant .

Bob ...don't take it seriously.... Its sad to say....that Chefs lack sense of humor if compared to the bakers.........

Thanks for the correction....my record starts at 0.90...as there are certain breads that have lower water content.( low hydration)...which is common in Asia...and also contains more of sugar in it.

Jams and jellies - .82 to .94

For jams and jellies My source says the range is from 0. 60-0.85

as the value of pH etc are already established....and if shelf life is the concern....how to reformulate products that will stay longer....is by means of water activity readings and Aw values...

.>principles. I want cooks with sympathetic kitchen hands, not academics.

IMO They really need to go details so they will have a grasp of the reaction mechanism.s.and what happened during the cookery process. And recently .the rise of culinology as a new discipline in cookery emphasizes that the kitchen personnel must not only be skilled in his kitchen stuff but also think like a food scientist...

Water activity is ubiquitous in human life. But a single factor as explanation for such complex conditions is not sufficient.

No, I don't think we do. I understand that water activity is a crucial issue. But it's not the only issue

In our particular field..(.as I stated previously..)..the pH readings are already considered and is part of the parameters to be taken to consideration....But the amount of available water for microbial growth is given emphasis in long shelf storage... Say for example a fruit cake...the baker will not measure the batter or cake pH, but now they emphasize the water activity measurements for such...to insure a good shelf life. .and it often works!

Reply to
chembake

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