problem with 2nd rise (yeast bread)

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I've been struggling with a problem making white bread for sandwiches,
following the recipe in Betty Crocker.  I've been proofing the yeast at
100F and following the recipe to the letter.  I'm having trouble with
the rise.

I've been putting the bowl in a warm water bath for the first rise (it's
winter, and my kitchen's ambient temp is 64).  This one goes well; the
dough doubles in an hour and holds finger indentations.

After punching down though, the 2nd rise doesn't go so well.  I've been
putting the pans in a 100F oven for this, and the top only rises to
about 3/4 inch over the edge of the 9x5 pan after 75 min.  (How can I
get a taller loaf?)

Then- this is the kicker- soon after the bake begins, the top collapses
and I end up with a concave loaf.

Cutting open, it looks like the gas bubbles just under the top were
considerably larger than the rest of the loaf, and have collapsed.  That
would explain the concavity.  But what causes this?  I'm wondering if
the 100F oven was too warm for the 2nd rise.

Thanks for any tips!

Re: problem with 2nd rise (yeast bread)
On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 14:03:54 -0500, Douglas Frank

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The simple explanation is that the yeast has "eaten" all of
the available nutrients.

As that happens, the rise slows, but in addition, the dough
becomes slightly more acidic. With that, the gluten (the
rubbery protein that prevents the gas from escaping)
weakens, and, as a result, you are getting what amounts to a
huge bubble below the upper crust. (That is called "flying
crust" and you might want to Google that phrase.)

I'd suggest that you simply allow the dough to rise once
before the bake.

But for better taste, you might want to slow the
fermentation. Allow the dough to ferment at your kitchen
temperature of 64, and things will go slower, but you will
end up with a far better bread.

All the best,

If you email... Please remove the "SPAMLESS."

Re: problem with 2nd rise (yeast bread)
I would say that the 100 temp for rising is just too warm.

The collapse of the loaves is because the loaves are over risen.

My home is also kept at 64 degrees and I rise the bread in the oven with
the light on.  That is plenty warm enough for a good rise.

Also, to have the loaves rise just over the top of the pan is fine.  
When the pans are then placed in the hot oven to bake there will be some
oven spring and they should end up the perfect size.


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Re: problem with 2nd rise (yeast bread)
On Sun, 01 Mar 2009 14:03:54 -0500, Douglas Frank

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You are trying to rush things!!!     Stop doing that.    Let the loaf
rise and the longer the rise, the better the flavor.  

Re: problem with 2nd rise (yeast bread)

"Douglas Frank" <wrote in message
Quoted text here. Click to load it

I agree with the others, 100F is way too high. Yesterday I did one large
loaf and 12 mini loaves, using pans and my kitchen was 64F/18C. I was using
75% white to 25% wholemeal. I use a very old Fannie Farmer recipe.

Salt is an important ingredient, it helps to stabilise the yeast, slows it
down a bit. IIRC the first rise was 1 hour (in linen lined bread baskets,
although mixing bowl is fine). Then transfer to pans/tins and the 2nd rise
was 90 minutes. How much salt do you use, or better still, print the Betty
Crocker recipe.

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