whole wheat bread

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Hi,

Does anyone have experience making whole wheat bread without salt?

I've made ordinary white bread in the past and had no problems. However I
recently tried making no salt whole wheat bread by modifying the recipe on
the back of the king arthur flour package.


3 1/2 cups whole wheat flour
1/4 cup powdered milk
1/4 cup vegetable oil
1 1/3 cups water
1 envelope yeast.

I'm not including salt or sweetener.

Don't copy this recipe. According to the redstar yeast web site, salt slows
the yeast and eliminating salt can cause the bread to collapse, and that's
exactly what happens when I use this recipe.

I think the problem is that it rises too fast and I just need to use less
yeast and get my oven pre-heated before the dough rises too far. Does anyone
have experience with this? Can I get this to work with less yeast and
shorter rising times?  Is there a better way? I'd like to get a yeasty
flavor through long rise times. Is there anyway to get that? The recipe
calls for kneading once, and after the first rise, shaping the loaves and
letting them rise in the pan. Would it do any harm to knead again after the
first rise and do a second rise before shaping the loaves etc?


Thanks









Re: whole wheat bread

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Hi,

Today, I tried less yeast, 1/2 tsp disolved in room temperature water, first
rise took 2.5 hours. I let it rise in the pan 55 minutes. So, less yeast
makes it more manageable. However even though I put it in the oven before it
rose fully, it still collapsed. The 4.5x8.5 pan was about 2/3 full when I
put the loaf in to rise, and I put it in the oven (400 degrees) when the top
of the loaf just rose above the edge of the pan.  Should I try more
flour/less water for a stiffer dough? Would adding egg whites help? Less
oil? Any other suggestions?

I'm measuring the whole wheat flour by stirring it in the bag and then
sprinkling it into the measuring cup to get ~4 oz by weight per cup. This is
how I have read one should measure flour for white bread, is it the same for
whole wheat flour?

Would the fact that I am not adding sweetener (sugar/honey) as the original
recipe calls for be part of the problem?


Thanks



Re: whole wheat bread
engv9q2ghqa wrote:
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Is it winter where you are?

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What's the consistency of the dough? How are you kneading it (hand?
machine? how long? what technique?...) It may just be that your dough is
too underdeveloped to support itself.


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What's the weight of dough in that pan? Did you do the dimple test or
just go by height?


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Let's concentrate on technique first, formula second.

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Yes, although it would be preferable to use a scale and weigh your
ingredients.

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Not significantly.

Re: whole wheat bread

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********************************************************
  Dick,  

Could this dough have risen too long?  The salt would have extended
rise, but he doesn't have any salt.  I frequently let my doughs go 45
minutes with nornal salt and get good rise, oven spring, etc.  I also
don't go much over 2 hours for a normal bread in fermentation.

It strikes me that the dough could be exhausted.  A first rise of 2 1/2
hours follored by a one hour final rise could be enough to kill the
dough, espeically with no salt.

Barry

********************************************************
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Re: whole wheat bread
Barry Harmon wrote:

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Barry,

Of course it's exhausted. What I'm trying to get at is the reason. How
is he determining the length of the fermentation? That is, is he going
by touch or by sight? I've given some specific advice and asked some
specific questions, but so far I haven't seen answers to those
questions. These doughs normally come very quickly, but if he's not
kneading it enough in the first place and he's judging the fermentation
visually instead of by touch, we're a long way from solving his problem.

Feel free to jump in anytime, though, especially if you've got a page
with pictures that will help. (Nice job you're doing on the site, by the
way; it has really come a long way.)

Dick

Re: whole wheat bread

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What is exhausted dough? Does exhaustion have to do with the gluten or the
yeast? The dough was rising well in the pan. I cut down on the amount of
yeast in the recipe because it was going very fast without salt.


Thanks



Re: whole wheat bread
engv9q2ghqa wrote:
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Exhaustion has to do with fermentation products. The yeast dies in its
own waste, essentially. Salt tightens gluten and helps give structure to
the dough. Without it, you have weaker gluten at the same time you have
faster yeast metabolism. That's what I meant when I said you're working
against nature.

When I worked in a commercial bakery, we made a salt-free whole wheat
bread _occasionally_ (it was a product that went in the freezer and was
only made again when there was none left--we couldn't sell it fast
enough to offer it as fresh baked goods). It was always problematic--it
tended to be poorly colored (pale gray rather than warm brown), poorly
textured (uneven crumb, more open than we wanted it), and poorly shaped
(rough top, swaybacked, and mushroomed over the pan walls). Sometimes a
batch would collapse and we'd throw it out. We were not happy bakers
when we saw salt-free bread on the order sheet. We used all the tricks
I'm trying to tell you about, but it was still an iffy proposition every
time.

Re: whole wheat bread

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.....

It's summer. The amount of yeast is less than 1/4 of that called for in the
recipe (2 1/4 tsp) I was trying to slow down the yeast because it was going
too fast without salt. Yesterday I used 1 tsp disolved in 110 degree water
and it still went very fast.

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I kneaded 8 minutes by hand, as the original recipe called for,  using the
fold push turn method.
I don't know how to describe the consistency of the dough - it was dough not
batter, it was pliable after resting and stiffer after kneading. As I
kneaded it, when I felt it was a bit sticky I would spread some flour on the
board or the dough.

How should I be assessing the consistency of 100% whole wheat dough? What
should I be looking for?
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For the first rise I used the dimple test, for the second rise I went by
height.


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I'm trying to modify a recipe that includes sugar and salt to make a bread
without sugar and salt. From my perspective, I don't have a formula so I
think formula is worth giving some importance to.

If there are any existing recipies that use 100% whole wheat flour and no
sugar or salt to make a loaf of bread I'd love to know about them.

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My scale said my 3.5 cups weighted 15 ounces.   (~4.3 oz per cup)  I don't
know if the scale is accurate or not. I don't have any standard weights to
check it with.


Thanks




Re: whole wheat bread
engv9q2ghqa wrote:
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Yeah, but what was the temp of the dough water? Recall that I suggested
you use COLD water, not room temp.

If you are using "active dry" yeast, you should mix it with a small
amount of 110 F water before starting to add flour, etc. But the larger
volume of water should be cold. If you are using "instant" yeast, you
can add the yeast, dry, to the flour and skip the 110 F water altogether.


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It's okay, in general, for dough to be a little tacky/sticky. With hand
kneading, most people tend to add too much flour, which creates problems.


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Because of the bran, whole wheat flour absorbs a lot more water, over a
longer period, than white flour. So a dough that starts out feeling
comfortably pliable can end up too dry. That doesn't seem to be your
problem, though.

The dough should feel sort of springy, but it won't reach the level of
elasticity that a white dough can achieve. The main thing you can
actually measure is temperature. What is the temperature of the dough
when you're done kneading? (With hand kneading, this will be very close
to the same temperature it was when you started kneading, of course.)
For a short-cycle straight dough, salt-free, you want the dough to be
very close to 78 F--certainly not above 80 F. If it's a lot cooler, you
can get a longer fermentation (better flavor), but you have to watch it
like a hawk.


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On the fermentation (first rise), did you take it on the young side as I
suggested or did you let it go to full fermentation?

Again, what was the weight of the dough in the pan?

Do you have smaller pans?

And, again, use the dimple test for the loaf, as suggested earlier, not
height in the pan.

The problem is that a salt-free dough is inherently weak and it ages
rapidly. So if you try for full height, it's guaranteed to collapse.


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I tend to like a sweeter whole wheat bread, so I don't have a formula
you would like. That's not to say others won't.

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That means you're doing an excellent job of fluffing the flour. For
whole wheat flour, that's a good weight.

Re: whole wheat bread
Dick,

Carol Field has a recipe for Pane Toscano, Tuscan Saltless Bread, in her
book, "The Italian Baker."  I've always had great success with her book
and her recipes work well for me.

Maybe he should try that recipe instead of tyring to modify an existing
recipe, at least for the first effort.  

The recipe calls for 205 grams white flour, and 475 grams of whole
wheat, which I would view as whole wheat bread flour. (Whole Foods to
the rescue!)  It uses a starter (poolish, 2/3 cup water to 175 grams
flour) and continues into the second day.  First rise (fermentation) 1
hour, second rise 45 minutes to 75 minutes.  AND, she posts it in
weights, too.

I'd be glad to post the recipe if it'll help.  If you think it will be a
help, I'll make the bread and shoot some pictures.

As for the site, it had no place to go but up!  <g>  But thanks for the
compliment.  You were a great help and inspiration, even if I did cuss
you under my breath while I was struggling with the first iteration of
CSS!  <VBG>

I'm straightening out a lot of things, getting the blog going, and just
generally making things consistent among and between the sections.  I've
got an 85% bread that I just posted, but I don't know how it will be
recieved.  It's for a lot of dough.  I had a lot of fun making it, and
plan to use it as an example of how to scale a recipe up and down, but I
don't know how many people will take one look at it and say "EEEEK!  
It's alive! It's Attacking The Counter!  Run Billy Bob!"  I'm hoping The
King Of Glop will take a look at it and have a comment or two, both
because I value his knowledge and because his posts are good reading.

This is the first creative bread I've made in a while -- just too
difficult to be creative with bread in the summer.  Pita's just about
enough.

Barry  




Re: whole wheat bread
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That seems a little light to me.  I use 4.5 oz. for white flour per cup.
Others use a little more than that.
Since you think you have no accurate scale, why don't you just go for a
pound of flour, is that possible? And then go from there.
Dee Dee




Re: whole wheat bread

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Well, one way to check the scale is to take a package of whatever,
something that weighs about 2 pounds.  Weigh that.  Then remove the item
from the package and weigh the packaging.  Subtract the packaging weight
from the total weight.  This should equal the stated net weight on the
package.

This won't be accurate to the grain, but it'll be close enough for bread
work.

Oh, and don't use liquid and expect this to work as written above.  A quart
of water weighs about 33 3/8 ounces.  Now that you know that little gem of
a figure, you could use a quart of soda, water, beer, vodka, etc.  (I'd be
careful about milk, I don't know what milk weighs, what with the solids in
there and all.)

Barry

Re: whole wheat bread

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I was faced with a similar problem when I found out that my digital scales
were not weighing accurately - it proved to be an uneven surface on part of
the counter top.
Sets of weights were expensive so I googled the Canadian Mint and found that
the Canadian dollar coin (the Looney) weighs 7 grams.  Therefore, I
periodically check mine with pocket change.
Graham



Re: whole wheat bread
Re: salt-free whole wheat bread, and kneeding whole wheat flour
I use Braggs instead of salt for everything except sweets. It's made
from soy, salt free but tastes salt.  For sweets, I use Capra mineral
whey powder.  In breadmaking without salt, the dough moves along about
twice as fast as when I use salt.  For kneeding whole wheat, I keep
adding water (instead of flour) many times during the kneeding
process.  The whole wheat dough dries out and gets hard unless I keep
adding water--then I get a dough that is as soft and flexible as using
white flour.  Definitely let it rise twice before shaping into loaves.

Linda

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Re: whole wheat bread
wrote:
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Have you looked at the sodium content on the Nutrition Facts on the
label?

One tablespoon of Bragg's has 660mg sodium.
http://www.bragg.com/products/liquidaminos.html

One T of Kikkoman less sodium soy sauce has 575mg.
http://www.peertrainer.com/DFcaloriecounterB.aspx?id=7104

La Choy Lite has 550mg.

Bragg's is FAR from "salt free."  You have been deceived.
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--Bryan


Re: whole wheat bread
 Bobo  wrote  on Sat, 11 Aug 2007 09:15:05 -0700:

 BB> On Aug 11, 9:02 am, Hitachi bread machine user
 ??>> Re: salt-free whole wheat bread, and kneeding whole wheat
 ??>> flour I use Braggs instead of salt for everything except
 ??>> sweets. It's made from soy, salt free but tastes salt.

 BB> Have you looked at the sodium content on the Nutrition
 BB> Facts on the label?

 BB> One tablespoon of Bragg's has 660mg sodium.
 BB> http://www.bragg.com/products/liquidaminos.html

 BB> One T of Kikkoman less sodium soy sauce has 575mg.
 BB> http://www.peertrainer.com/DFcaloriecounterB.aspx?id=7104

 BB> La Choy Lite has 550mg.

 BB> Bragg's is FAR from "salt free."  You have been deceived.

What is "Bragg's"  by the way? Is it also called Aminos and is a
variant on soy sauce?

James Silverton
Potomac, Maryland

E-mail, with obvious alterations:
not.jim.silverton.at.verizon.not


Re: whole wheat bread
wrote:
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Yes, and it does not taste bad.  It just isn't low in sodium.
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--Bryan


Re: whole wheat bread

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Hi,

For those interested I have an update on the no salt, no sweetener whole
wheat bread...

I found that using king arthur white whole wheat flour works. White whole
wheat flour is also whole wheat but it is made from a different strain of
wheat so it is lighter in color. In the final recipe I used 2 tbsps of oil,
and 1 tsp of yeast, 15 oz flour by weight, and 1/4 cup powdered milk, 1 1/3
cups water,  no salt, no sweetener. Knead, form loaf, let rise in pan. Bake
40 minutes at 350 degrees. I assume two rises will work okay too, but
haven't tried it yet.

I also found the 100% whole wheat flour works with these ingredients in
no-knead recipes (using 1 1/2 cups water). It doesn't rise much in the oven
but doesn't sink as it did when I tried the kneaded recipes. Mix the
ingredients in a bowl, let rise. Mix again 25 strokes, transfer to pan ,
allow to rise, bake 47.5 minutes at 400 degrees.





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