OT: The Voices in my Head

On Tue, 29 Jul 2003 22:02:18 -0400, Dr. Sooz wrote (in message ):

If you'd like, I'd be happy to pass it along once I've finished. It won't arrive here for a little bit, since I used the free shipping option from Amazon.

Just drop me a line, and I'll be happy to pass it along.

Kathy N-V

LOL! The people who think you're a jerk must be A: crazy or B: heavily medicated!

Not to insult your parents, but they have to have a *major* perceptual flaw to believe that you're a "nasty bitch".

!!!

I think it is a shame and a half that from the time you enter school, til the time you get out that psychlogy courses don't teach kids the truth and don't empower them to respond to their troubled lives and give them little lehal options. In my case, which is not unique, I was. I knew I was better than my situation. I know a woman who was brutalizes her whole childhood and becuse she buys in to all that respect your elders crap, she is still bowing down to him. You can look at her and see what it has cost her. She weighs 5oolbs. An sge is a sick sorry human. We all tried to help her and she will never listen. Sad ! Once you don;t have to live around this, when you come of age, you alone are reponsible for nurturing yourself and creating your life. Too may people buy in to the crap people put on them to keep them down. My struggle to become better than i was told i was, wasn'teasy, but it happened, Any one out there who has lurked and not responded to this thread, please listen to me ... if you are suffering some kind of abuse, or are the product of childhood abuse, do yourselves a favor and GET HELP NOW! You CAN change your life ! Rainboe

Rainbow,

It sounds like you learned to deal with this stuff better then almost anyone I have ever met with these types of problems. That is really admirable.

Although I do not believe I came from an abusive background at all, I am having difficulties with my parents and some of what you say carries over there as well I think. I tend to just feel really guilty about even thinking I *HAVE* problems when I hear a story like your's, but there is a lot to learn for everyone from hearing about another person's experience. Thanks for sharing.

marisa2

Glad to hear he doesn't haunt you. Much better for your health and your dreams.

Deirdre

I think we're finally waking up to the fact that this kind of coercive control does -not- create healthy people. Just resentful, intimidated and sometimes emotionally dissociated ones.

And the beat(ing) goes on...

Deirdre

Not so many years ago, the penal system tried out a new course of corrective actions for juvelines. They used a "bootcamp" model. In the short run, the boys were more disciplined and obedient. In the long run, they learned that being big and mean works.

Tina

Yep. Its fast, its easy (on the adult) and says the desired behavour is more important than the person. Its a lazy answer if you ask me. I dont like intimidation techniques of any form. Its bullying if done with fists or not. Fear is not a healthy way of keeping kids in control...*unless that is a healthy response to a real danger* half asleep.. not sure what Im trying to say.. but I know what kind of parenting I would rather do. Discipline, not punishment. Teach, guide, not browbeat into submission. Diana

Sorry ... I think I sent html to the list again ... damn these half blind eyes ! Sight is bad today. I have learning difficulties. And ADD. Beading or anything else never comes easy, and i am slower than most folks at most things. This one thing so irked all the adults in my childhod and some of my friends, that it caused continual punishment verbally. But as I have said, I dealt with ths. I watch Dr. Phil alot. he seems to have it right, for the most part, that brow beating and intmidation donn't work. He is right. He also avocates loving one's self. I also believe that some people do not need to have kids. Look, I work with kids on a part time basis, but in a special way because I entertain them with clowning and magic. Not once in 23 years have I ever seen any evidence of any parent ever verbally bullying or harming a kid in front of me. And I think that is more than telling .... I've seen some behaviors I disagreed with, like the man who told his kid if he didn't behave, I would slap him ... and I know I am not just extraordinarily lucky and never ran into any. They're out there. I've always wondered if some of the parents i've met are the ones ... I have met so many nurturing parents ! I think they are good actors in front of me, the bad ones. I think and I know that it is more than a few and more than we know. We were at a casino yesterday for lunch and saw an extraordinary performance by a dad berating loudly everyone in a party of about 6 kids and a couple of adults. It was embarassing ! I can only imagine how this escalates at home. Being able to get past child abuse issues was simple enough for me because I knew it was wrong. Like I said, don't ask me how I just accepted that ... Because tis is 2003 and we know so much more about all these mental games people play, you'd think many more people would understand what it is and as soon as possible, get out of their situations. For me, I began to make jewelry. really early in life, like in 1966. It gave me something to focus on, something to be proud of and a quiet place to go when the world got too rough. And it does today. I have had to learn how to learn, for myself and learn how to sit and carry out projects to completion, ( yes I have UFO's I get tired of and set down ) and to sit quietly and meditate and work. And I do not allow anyone in my life who isn't as nurturing as I naturally am. I think and I know that kids should be taught early in life to find themselves, and know that anything other than love and respect is wrong. Rainbow

Yup. It also teaches kids that their natural impulses to things-- healthy reactions such as outrage at being mistreated-- have to be contained and suppressed.

There's a huge disconnect between "mommy loves you" and "mommy beats the crap out of you" and little kids can't afford to express anger and outrage at mommy's violence toward them when they are also so dependent on her for love and care. So violence becomes rationalized in the child's mind as an expression of love, and is thus perpetuated.

Belief in the myth of "she hit me because she loved me" and remaining unable to see that, in reality, people-- including our own parents-- mistreat others for reasons that have nothing to do with love, will give that child license to beat her own kids when she's a mother, too, unless she learns to understand this and can then circumvent the cycle.

Laura

Yes, don't you just love it? The justification for that was what, exactly? Let's take a bunch of troubled kids who are acting out because they have probably already been grossly abused and have the sanctioned system abuse them even more!

Laura

I hit my kid once---swatted his bottom at age four when he ran straight out in front of an on-coming car, and I yanked him back and swatted his butt with my hand. Did it before I even *thought*, and shocked us both. He looked at me in outrage and said "That HURT!!" I said "Yes, it did---think how much it would hurt to get hit by that car instead of my soft little hand." I told him it really scared me to see him run into the street, and please don't do that any more. He said please don't hit me anymore. We both agreed. Neither of us ever did that again. I'm not proud of having hit him, but at least it was an effective and honest exchange. Sarajane

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Yes!

You did what you instinctively felt, as a mom, you had to do to protect your son, and you gave your son an honest opportunity to tell you how it made him feel. You didn't cut him off from his real feelings about it, and you didn't cut yourself off from allowing yourself to explore what you felt when he told you this. In addition, you both used the opportunity to reason with one another and come to a respectful agreement.

It sounds like both of you *grew* through the experience and no one felt they had to repress anything. That's the crux of the whole issue, for me, and a pretty cool thing.

Laura

Yes, that's it. And tho I didn't like the behavior of hitting, we *talked* about it. That's the part that was the most different for me from my own childhood. When I make a mistake, I admit that it happened, that I chose poorly, and I apologise.

My parents would pretend that nothing had ever happened, even to the point of saying I was "imagining" things. I was "clumsy". This was far more damaging than the actual hitting was. My mom still chooses to think of me as a liar because I am willing to talk about the past, and she would prefer not to think about it. So, I talk with others--like here. Sarajane

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Now *that* is what I consider a reasonable (and age-appropriate) use of physical discipline. If all parents applied your standards, there wouldn't be a problem.

Celine

Yes -- and more than that, what does it teach about being a parent, or being an adult? Some parents seem to feel that they must be infallible; I think it is CRITICALLY IMPORTANT that parents be able to admit to their children that they made a mistake, and to apologize. It makes the child realize that he or she

Celine

I've done similar things with both my kids. It was a near-reflex on my part to imminent danger....my daughter's almost running loose in a parking lot when she was three, and my son heading for an unprotected outlet (we were painting the room) with keys at the age of two are prime examples. In both cases I wasn't swatting (and it was just one smack) to punish, but to scare the bejeezus out of them and (in terms of psych-speak) to create a very negative association to what they'd done. Had they been older so I could've just talked to them, that would've been my choice. However, they were both at ages/attitudes where even yelling "no" was greeted with giggles as often as obedience. Until you have a truly cognizant being to deal with, sometimes a very small dose of pain + fear is, regrettably, the most effective method.

I was so relieved when my kids got old enough to reason with (more or less). Lots less stress for both of us.

-- KarenK Desert Dreamer Designs

I learned ten years ago or so, that both my manual and digital dexterity are at the low end of normal. It was a great thing to learn. I had thought that I couldn't catch because I wasn't trying, dropped things because I wasn't paying attention, couldn't do things because I didn't care enough, etc. I was relieved to discover it was only because I was born with lesser capacity for dexterity.

Tina

Absolutely, as much as ANY body. And its also important to know that *that's what people are supposed to do* when they wrong others. Because we all make mistakes, its part of learning.

Parenting is extrememly hard, and it makes me have the sweats lots of times...but its also wonderfully enlightening. Sarajane

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