Re: FMG now has Hill Tribe Silver!

I'll ask again (sorry I'm a late arriver) What's the deal with FMG? I'm not being nosey, but I don't want to buy from someone if there's an issue.

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003 22:24:56 -0400, CLP wrote (in message ):

This is strictly my opinion, but these are the reasons I won't buy from FMG.

1. Quality - Not the best. Not even close to the best. The photos in their catalogs are nothing like the actual products that I've received. I don't want to waste my time on inferior products.
2. Price - I can usually do better than even the quantity prices that FMG offers, and for nicer goods.
3. Misleading advertisements - I've seen crummy cast silver beads passed off as real Bali silver, and cheap Indian lampwork passed off as artisan made goods. The trouble is that people unknowingly buy this stuff, thinking it's the real thing, and never end up knowing how nice the real thing actually is.

For instance, Lampwork. Say that I bought some lampwork from the catalog, thinking that this is the Real Deal, and that an artisan somewhere spent up to five hours making the bead. After all, that's what the ad says. Then I get a bead that is still full of bead release, has muddy colors and breaks when I look at it, because it was never annealed. In all likelihood, that would turn me off of lampwork for life. I'd never even think of purchasing one of the real works of art that I see in this group every day, because I think that lampwork is that junk that shattered on me five seconds after I bought it.

1. Slave and/or child labor - This is my main reason for not buying from FMG. In the previous paragraph, I mentioned that the advertisement said that the featured beads took up to five hours apiece to make. These same beads sell for about /apiece. Say that FMG took no profit on them, and that there was no middleman's profit. Also, imagine that there were no material costs, and that the torch time was free of charge. If every cent of that went to the beadmaker, that's only 4. Slave and/or child labor - This is my main reason for not buying from FMG. In the previous paragraph, I mentioned that the advertisement said that the featured beads took up to five hours apiece to make. These same beads sell for about $2/apiece. Say that FMG took no profit on them, and that there was no middleman's profit. Also, imagine that there were no material costs, and that the torch time was free of charge. If every cent of that $2 went to the beadmaker, that's only $0.40/hour..40/hour.

Now, we all know that FMG takes their cut, and that there are middlemen, materials and shipping costs. All that overhead means at least half and probably 3/4 of my $2 purchase price never gets as far as the factory that made the beads. The worker probably makes no more than half of what goes to the factory. Doing the math, that means the worker got no more than $0.25 for making the bead. Five hours work for a quarter? To me, that spells either slave, prison and/or child labor. I don't want to ever support such things with my money.

1. Race to the Bottom - Because FMG buys such huge quantities, compared to smaller vendors, they have a lot of clout in getting lower prices. Eventually, their drive to get the lowest price and the most profit will make the production of handmade beads impossible. An artisan making beads will not be able to support him or herself with her craft, and will have to learn something else. Young people aren't going to want to learn a skill that cannot provide even a subsistance level of support. In the long run, the craft itself will die out, and no one will be able to buy Bali beads or artisan lampwork at any price.

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So that's it. I generally buy from people I know, mostly people I've "met" here in R.C.B. I buy from the same people over and over, and build relationships with them. I think I pay fair prices for the items I buy, and I certainly get good quality from the vendors. I haven't found anything that is unique to FMG, and even if I did, there are so many wonderful beads out there that don't give me ethical qualms. I can spend my money elsewhere and sleep a little better at night.

Just my $0.02,

Kathy N-V

I would not recommend buying gemstone beads from Fire Mountain. Their quality tends to be low, and you can't see what you're getting. I've been happy enough with things like castings and findings -- but I do notice that *if* I can find the same item elsewhere, Fire Mountain tends not to have the best price. Those things which I haven't found another source for, I buy from Fire Mountain and don't sweat it.

Celine

My experience with FMG has been very positive.

I started making jewelry 18 months ago. I'm active in a dog rescue group (Rhodesian Ridgeback Rescue) and the annual specialty show was coming up. Rescue sells Ridgeback related items at the specialty to raise money. I had managed to get 5 sterling silver Ridgeback charms, and I figured I could get a friend to teach me to make bracelets from them to sell at the rescue table.

Five bracelets later, I was hooked. I borrowed an FMG catalog to look at, and there, on the inside cover, was a picture of the owners with their Rhodesian Ridgeback. I went to the FMG website, saw that the RR had his own page, read all about him, and then sent an email to PC, the dog, explaining that we were trying to raise money for RR Rescue and asking for a donation of supplies to make bracelets to sell at the specialty.

Two weeks later I got a box from FMG with about $250 worth of supplies. I only had time to use up about half of the stuff before the specialty, but we sold nearly $1000 worth of bracelets. I'll use the other half for the next specialty.

I certainly respect the opinions many of you have voiced, but in this instance their hearts were in the right place, and the quality of what I received was quite good.

Elise

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :

]For instance, Lampwork. Say that I bought some lampwork from the catalog, ]thinking that this is the Real Deal, and that an artisan somewhere spent up ]to five hours making the bead. After all, that's what the ad says. Then I ]get a bead that is still full of bead release, has muddy colors and breaks ]when I look at it, because it was never annealed.

]4. Slave and/or child labor - This is my main reason for not buying from ]FMG. In the previous paragraph, I mentioned that the advertisement said that ]the featured beads took up to five hours apiece to make. These same beads ]sell for about $2/apiece.

just out of curiosity, where does Czech lampwork fit in within these two?

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.Regime Change in 2004 - The life you save may be your own.

A friend went to Bali (for personal reasons) and visited the factory I buy from and I have what she wrote under the About Bali button on my button bar.

Czech lampwork? If it's made in Czechoslovakia by an artisan that makes everything in their studio as one of a kind, like Tink or I or any other lampwork artist, then it can be treated as artisan lampwork. Or are you talking about Czech glass beads? Those are different - Czech glass beads are pressed, not lampworked, and they are mass produced with Czech glass. I don't think the cheap, crappy lampwork comes from Czechoslovakia - it usually comes from India or China.

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Kandice Seeber" :

]Czech lampwork? If it's made in Czechoslovakia by an artisan that makes ]everything in their studio as one of a kind, like Tink or I or any other ]lampwork artist, then it can be treated as artisan lampwork. Or are you ]talking about Czech glass beads? Those are different - Czech glass beads ]are pressed, not lampworked, and they are mass produced with Czech glass.

no - that's not what i've got. it actually is Czech lampwork, but it's also multiple beads just alike. the lady i buy them from actually goes to Czechoslovakia, picks out the patterns she likes, and has them made up.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.Regime Change in 2004 - The life you save may be your own.

IME most people and most institutions are a mixed bag. I agree that FMG uses misleading advertising, and I also agree that they aren't all bad, and not everything they sell is junque.

Lots of people start there, because they have so many kinds of things available in one place. And lots of people move away from them as they get more sophisticated and demanding about quality.

I don't avoid them specifically to register a protest against their marketing practices, some of which are dubious, but I've bought less and less from them over time because I can usually get better versions of the same things elsewhere, often for less if I can meet the other vendor's minimum for either dollar amount or quantity per item.

I still have things I -did- buy from them that I look at and wonder "What'll I ever do with that?" because I've learned more in the meanwhile and no longer see that merchandise from them as being adequate according to my current standards. Live and learn is how I see it.

Deirdre

Hmm - those pics are hard to see, but that lampwork looks mass produced to me. If she goes to Czechoslovakia, picks a pattern and has a whole lot of beads made up, the beads are probably made in a high production factory by people who are making very little money. If the lady you buy from is honest about where the beads come from, then I see no problem with it - other than the fact that the beads are most likely not annealed and may not last very long. They are definitely not artisan made, but produced quickly and cheaply. But there's no problem with that in my mind. It's when the vender lies about how and where they are getting the beads, and pretends like they are artisan made that I have a problem.

Actually, I have some very nice quality commercial, large lots produced Czech beads that are a very nice quality. Like you can get hand-detailed beads in Italy that are very high quality.

As far as what the workers get. Czech is one of the earliest exporters of china and beads, so there is an established art industry there. But the wages are unbelievable low by American standards. On the other hand, they are unbelievably high by Ukrainian standards.

Tina

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Kandice Seeber" :

]Hmm - those pics are hard to see, but that lampwork looks mass produced to ]me. If she goes to Czechoslovakia, picks a pattern and has a whole lot of ]beads made up, the beads are probably made in a high production factory by ]people who are making very little money. If the lady you buy from is honest ]about where the beads come from, then I see no problem with it - other than ]the fact that the beads are most likely not annealed and may not last very ]long. They are definitely not artisan made, but produced quickly and ]cheaply. But there's no problem with that in my mind. It's when the vender ]lies about how and where they are getting the beads, and pretends like they ]are artisan made that I have a problem.

well, that was rather how i felt. according to her, the girls there start in about the 4th grade learning how to make the beads and keep learning until they are ready to leave school and start working. she talked them into doing wedding cake beads [i think it was Becki raving about them a long time ago?] and i finally got to see what they look like. she talked them into making some for her. and mini ones.

i don't generally use them for anything but the inexpensive earrings, but it sure is nice to have things to use for that, since getting a "pair" is relatively easy.

the annealing i'm going to have to check on again - i've forgotten.

they have been well-cleaned, and don't have all that bead-release in them. i would LOVE to make that trip with her some day and see where they are all made.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.Regime Change in 2004 - The life you save may be your own.

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Christina Peterson" :

]Actually, I have some very nice quality commercial, large lots produced ]Czech beads that are a very nice quality. Like you can get hand-detailed ]beads in Italy that are very high quality. ] ]As far as what the workers get. Czech is one of the earliest exporters of ]china and beads, so there is an established art industry there. But the ]wages are unbelievable low by American standards. On the other hand, they ]are unbelievably high by Ukrainian standards.

Thanks, Tina. that's what J'me kept saying, but sometimes you want to hear it from another source.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.Regime Change in 2004 - The life you save may be your own.

The glass bead industry in the Czech Republic is well established and has been there for over 100 years (if not longer). While the firepolished and pressed glass is made in factories, there are many factories and none of them would be considered huge by American standards. The lampwork beads are a completely different story - or at least they used to be. Lampworking is a cottage industry in the Czech Republic utilizing many individual families making beads at home. The techniques are passed from generation to generation starting at a very young age. These people are VERY skilled artisans and by their own country's standards, very well paid. They make beads only in the styles that have been mainstays of the industry for decades, so they may look 'mass-produced.' For them, the beads are a product to make well but they are NOT necessarily an expression of an artist's sensibility.

The beads are contracted for through either the factory owners or other middlemen - the families rarely, if ever, produce beads for direct marketing. As for quality, I can only assume that their glass industry knows how to make beads that last considering how long it's existed in that area. If they didn't make a quality product, it wouldn't have flourished as it has.

Mj

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Mj" :

]The glass bead industry in the Czech Republic is well established and has ]been there for over 100 years (if not longer). While the firepolished and ]pressed glass is made in factories, there are many factories and none of ]them would be considered huge by American standards. The lampwork beads are ]a completely different story - or at least they used to be. Lampworking is ]a cottage industry in the Czech Republic utilizing many individual families ]making beads at home. The techniques are passed from generation to ]generation starting at a very young age. These people are VERY skilled ]artisans and by their own country's standards, very well paid. They make ]beads only in the styles that have been mainstays of the industry for ]decades, so they may look 'mass-produced.' For them, the beads are a ]product to make well but they are NOT necessarily an expression of an ]artist's sensibility. ] ]The beads are contracted for through either the factory owners or other ]middlemen - the families rarely, if ever, produce beads for direct ]marketing. As for quality, I can only assume that their glass industry ]knows how to make beads that last considering how long it's existed in that ]area. If they didn't make a quality product, it wouldn't have flourished as ]it has.

Thank you! that's what the lady i buy them from [J'me - not my daughter] has been telling me. confirmation is a good thing.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.Regime Change in 2004 - The life you save may be your own.

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:20:24 -0400, Dr. Sooz wrote (in message ):

Thank you Marjean, and thank you Sooz.

I re-read the Bead Notes the other day. Lots of helpful information there, and I recognized quite a few of my own posts. Some of my postings are old -- I can't remember writing them, but I know my own style. :-)

Kathy N-V

Well, that's very good to know. I am not sure how I feel about this. I can understand and respect the fact that these people are skilled and taught from a very young age. But honestly, the beads did not look to me like something made from a highly skilled artisan. Of course this is totally different from the type of lampwork sold by FMG, and that is what I was getting at. If people are buying beads from a person obtaining them from a tribal community that prides themselves on well made beads and has been doing it for decades, then that's wonderful. I am also glad to hear that these tribal communtities are not selling their stuff to FMG or other large retailers - they would likely not get near enough money for their beads.

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Kandice Seeber" :

]But honestly, the beads did not look to me like ]something made from a highly skilled artisan.

has better pictures than i do. they're nothing like what i buy from American artists. they're totally different.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.Regime Change in 2004 - The life you save may be your own.

As I said in my comments, the styles shown in vj's scans are typical of those the Czech bead industry has made for decades. Just because they don't make beads like people do here in the states (like yours for instance) doesn't mean these people aren't highly skilled. They are making a product for sale in a foreign country (usually) that is supposed to be uniform in size and pattern from piece to piece - and to make them quickly enough to make money for their family. Again as I said - these people aren't making beads to express their artistic sensibilities, but to make money to support their families. That doesn't make them any less skilled than lampworkers here - or incapable of turning out something that looks like a Corina bead, which I suspect many of these people could do in a heartbeat.

As to lampwork knock-offs from India, I have the same problem as you do with FMG's description of 'artisan made' - clearly they're not. I suspect that we'll soon see imitation Hilltribe silver styles coming out of India too, much like all the cast "Bali" that comes from there now.

Mj