>The city in which I live has no official celebration for Independence Day,
>they celebrate on Flag Day instead. I really like it that way, there's
>boatloads to do in Boston on the 4th, and Flag Day is a really nice, family
>oriented celebration instead.
I'm glad you have such a nice event to attend and enjoy. At the same time, I can't help feeling a little sad, knowing that if my family were living in your city, we'd be excluded from it. Oh, not physically -- but as long as being American and being Christian (or at least Jewish) are so pointedly conflated, we're excluded nonetheless, as are any Buddhists, Hindus, or atheists who happen to live there. I wonder how *they* feel?
The fact that you noticed it enough to joke about it is a pretty strong indicator. *You* at least realized that there might be a problem. What bothers me is the people who *don't* notice... and the generations of children who grow up KNOWING -- at the same "never questioned" level, and for the same reasons, that they *know* men don't cry and little girls grow up to be Mommies -- that America, Patriotism, and Christianity are all the same thing.
How hard would it be to invite representatives from every local faith to offer a word? It's not the mention of God that's offensive, it's the exclusion of any
Will you please explain how singing "God Bless America" excludes religious groups other than Christians? They had an Irish tenor singing "God Bless America" at the Yankee game today, I didn't notice anyone booing. Patti
Whose God is it? The only time you'll hear anyone making the argument that it's
*not* specifically the God of the Bible is when they want to "put God back into the public schools". If you were to ask that a Goddess-oriented hymn be sung as well, you'd get very short shrift.
Whose ever you want it to be. It doesn't specify in the song. It just asks that the country be blessed. Why is everybody so uptight and PC these days? It's like everyone is looking for something to take offense at. There are "plenty" of overt, obnoxious exclusionary practices abounding. Go after those. Relax. Take a deep breath. Be who you are and the heck with those who can't accept it. I'm personally offended by the restaurants here in St. Louis that call themselves "clubs" and don't allow women to dine there. (well, except on certain days, if they are with a male member. I wouldn't eat there if I was starving.) But, hey, those guys have a right to be the pinheads they are..... Barbara Dream Master
formatting link
"Do not spoil what you have, by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for."
Kathy -- THANK YOU. I need to keep that paragraph forever. I have such trouble explaining my own relgious beliefs in a way that makes any sense. That says it for me.
Becki "In between the moon and you, the angels have a better view of the crumbling difference between wrong and right.." -- Counting Crows
Yep, that's the standard answer when anyone asks this question. Then you ask if the Buddhists and the Hindus and the pagans could have a representative there to say a word or two, and you never HEARD such a hullabaloo. So I don't buy the "it's no specific god" argument. Poke it just once, and it immediately ceases to hold water.
I'll say it again, as often as I need to: it's not the expression of Christian religious belief in public/patriotic settings which is the problem. It's the continuing and deliberate EXCLUSION of anyone else's religious belief.
I understand this -- it's the same kind of thing I do about some very beautiful Christian religious music. For example, I still like a lot of the standard Christmas carols, though nowadays I prefer to listen to them in instrumental settings.
But Christmas is (at least nominally, in this country) a Christian religious festival, and musical expressions of Christianity are to be expected. The really disturbing part of the 4th of July thing, to me, IS precisely the conflation of Christianity and patriotism. When the President of the United States can say point-blank that he doesn't consider my faith to be a "real" religion (i.e. one worthy of First Amendment protection), there's a HUGE problem somewhere. And I think all this "God Bless America" hoopla is a large part of it.
Yeah, I agree with that. It completely stresses me out to think of it that way, though. I feel better about life when I consider that this is one place on earth where we even get to have a choice regarding religion, and where we can go up to the President and call him an idoit for thinking that way, and not get thrown in jail for it. I am grateful that I live in a time when not as many people get killed for believing a certain thing. Some people still do, and I hope that someday that will not be true. But a hundred years ago, pagans had much more to be afraid of. And so did Jews, Hindus, Muslims and so on. Hopefully it will keep getting better.
Celine -- I really feel for you and agree with your posts. It has long bothered me that one form of religion is "blessed" by our government and all others are excluded.
Becki "In between the moon and you, the angels have a better view of the crumbling difference between wrong and right.." -- Counting Crows
There actually is a reference in the bible that says something about God having created life among the stars, or some such thing. My husband showed it to me once (he's very Catholic, also very strange). Lord, the thought of it, "the aliens have landed and they brought a new version of the Spanish Inquisition!" Arrrrghhhhh...run for the hills! Barbara Dream Master
formatting link
"Do not spoil what you have, by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for."
The fact that some people have no tolerance for other religious beliefs does not negate the answer. It still can represent God however you see him, her or it. Galileo said the world was round. The church said no way. It did not make his statement untrue. It simply showed the intolerance of the church for new ideas. Barbara Dream Master
formatting link
"Do not spoil what you have, by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for."
I get similar reaction when I say something that is considered outrageous here in the midwest. They say, "oh, she's from CA" with a knowing look in their eyes. Barbara Dream Master
formatting link
"Do not spoil what you have, by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for."
Again, the problem isn't with "God Bless America". It's with the person currently (and illegally) in the White House. He says that anyone who doesn't support the war in Iraq is un american. He also doesn't want people to be allowed to criticize his policies. Talk about Un american!!!! Someone needs to read him the Bill of Rights. Then define each of the words for him so that he can under- stand it. Barbara Dream Master
formatting link
"Do not spoil what you have, by desiring what you have not; remember that what you now have was once among the things only hoped for."
In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they're not. I wish we did live in the world where your theory is true; unfortunately, we don't.
And it's with the widely-held attitude that America is "a Christian country", and that being *not* Christian is the same thing as being "un-American". "God Bless America" is only a symptom and a reinforcing factor, not the root cause.
Do you know why I bring these things out in the open, even though I get called names just about every time I do it? It's because I have SO MUCH LESS TO LOSE than so many other people like me. I have no job to be fired from, no apartment to be evicted from, no children to be taken away from me. If I can make even a few people more aware of the overwhelming ASSUMPTION that Christianity and patriotism are the same thing, all those other people for whom I am the voice will be safer as well. It's the same thing the gays say: "Silence equals Death."
On Sun, 6 Jul 2003 19:30:53 -0400, Barbara Otterson wrote (in message ):
No... The worst would be the Nun Planet. If you see Catholic adults past 40 or so and flick the lights or click a pen, they can not help but shut up, pay attention, sit properly and face front. We're worse than Pavlov's dogs: we're Parochial School Survivors!
Imagine it: the Ruling Class, Nuns and the Clergy, keeping an eye on the masses. The Nuns would have probably evolved with rulers in their right hands, eyes in the backs of their head, and a sixth sense that detected gum chewing or the passing of notes.
The rest of population, let's call them serfs, would toil endlessly and joylessly, females clad in wool plaid jumpers with a Peter pan collared shirt underneath. Male serfs get to wear navy slacks, a white, buttoned down shirt, black dress shoes and a navy blue tie.
They would have to reproduce asexually, since on Nun Planet no one ever removes their clothes. However they reproduce, they do it extremely well: most families have boatloads of children, all destined to become Parochial School Serfs.
I can see old Jean-Luc Picard heading down there for a mission of diplomacy: Sister Mary Elephant would have him sitting in a wastebasket, getting thrashed with the ruler moving at warp nine for having dared to speak without raising his hand and being recognized. And that form fitting outfit? Someone's gonna be saying a lot of rosaries for that one, to be sure.
Some pagan Greek living Egypt (whose name eludes me at this hour of the day.) deduced that the world is round, and then went on to calculate it's size. He didn't use a computer, but was only off by a few miles.
InspirePoint website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here.
All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.