Terribly OT opinions requested...

Karlee, this is solely your decision - your mother needs to respect your wishes for this birth. It's not like she wasn't there before, so she has had the experience of being there for a grandchild's birth - let her sit this one out.

Btw, I think your choices are wonderful and absolutely valid - if I were ever (never! :D ) to have a child, I would make the same requests. It's your body and your baby and your labor, not anyone else's. I think, FWIW, that it's important that you stand fast in your wishes so that you can have the experience be just like you want it to be.

| Maybe you could let your mom and dh's parents in | a few hours after for a short visit just to see the new babe and then ask if | they'll wait till you are home, or maybe you'll decide the next day you might | want them to visit.

Good idea in theory, but mom won't leave when asked. Not when I ask her anyway. Its like I don't have a brain and can't deicide for myself when I've had enough. She is more impossible to deal with than a brick wall at times.

DH's mother WILL NOT be allowed ANYWHERE near me for a long damn time. She won't be able to get on ft riley after next month. Period. Please, don't think for one damn minute that she will be allowed to even SEE these kids, ever, much less while I'm in the hospital. If there is any question on this, there is a thread about it archived on google (OT going to be gone UPDATE) that thoroughly explains why I don't want this bitch near me or the kids.

If I have a VBAC, I'll be kept for a minimum of 36 hours, and if I have a c-section I'll be kept for a minimum of 72 hours. Hospital policy. I say minimum because my doc is threatening already to keep me double the length that HP states....due to MAJOR complications after my first delivery (I almost died because of a staph infection that went to my brain following surgery)

Hugs Karlee in Kansas

You misunderstand. Pregancies have been very hard on her. And while there are good reasons to hold off on "becoming sterile" at the young age of 27 and that she might want children (later), the biggest consideration is it (having children) might damage her health.

You always have to look at both sides of the consequences when you make a decision of this great importance.

I had a miscarriage in my 20s, after I already had 2 children, at 18 and 20, and I was talked out of tubal ligation. Had one done instead at 35. I wish it had been done earlier. But I understand why it was discouraged. My husband also has been "fixed".

Tina

| I heard that "what if..." a long time ago. I think you should pay careful | attention to the possibility (in today's society, even a likelihood) that | you might remarry and want children. But your physical well-being is even | more important. |

*If* (and that is a very very loose if....neither one of us wants to go through that again, and have "contingency plans" in place in case we run into trouble) this marriage ends in divorce, I'm done with marriage. This is #2 for me, both marriage wise and kid wise. Besides, adoption is a possibility, and *if* I do happen to get divorced again and then remarried, the chance of him having kids of his own is greater than of him not having kids of his own. (DH and I have a very stable, secure, loving relationship. Both of us have been married before, and are older and more mature now. I know myself and I know my husband, and I know that divorce is not in our future. We went through extensive premarital counseling, and are still going through marital counseling, but not because of problems....we are learning how to avoid and work through any problems that may arise.)

There is also the financial end of things. DH and I have asked ourselves if we honestly think that we have the financial resources to support more than two kids, and the answer is no. We don't. Two is plenty for us.

The biggest reason that we are going to get fixed is because of health issues. Both of these pregnancies have been pure hell on my body, and I don't think that I want to go through it again. I have a history of pre-term labor. First pregnancy the pt started at 26 weeks. This time it waited until 29 weeks, but I couldn't have the "usual" meds that they use to stop it because during my first experience we determined that I'm allergic....severely allergic to some of the "usual" meds. My first delivery was followed by a severe staph infection that went to my brain, sent me into shock, then into a coma. The docs are going to do everything possible to try to stop that from happening again, but this delivery will probably be just as difficult as the 18.5 hours that I went through the first time. Under no circumstances do I want a repeat of any of that. Hence, sterilization. No pills to remember, no shots to forget about....no surprises either.

I do appreciate your thoughts though...and it isn't something that we haven't talked about already.

Hugs Karlee in Kansas

I absolutely agree with everything you said. I was NOT recomending you put off the surgery, just that you think it through. Looks like you did a good job of it.

Tina

through that again, and have "contingency plans"

done with marriage. This is #2 for me, both

I do happen to get divorced again and then

not having kids of his own. (DH and I have a

before, and are older and more mature now. I

future. We went through extensive premarital

because of problems....we are learning how to avoid

if we honestly think that we have the

We don't. Two is plenty for us.

issues. Both of these pregnancies have been pure

have a history of pre-term labor. First

but I couldn't have the "usual" meds that

I'm allergic....severely allergic to some of

infection that went to my brain, sent me into shock,

stop that from happening again, but this

through the first time. Under no

No pills to remember, no shots to forget

haven't talked about already.

I have two observations, Karlee. 1. Don't let yourself get too defensive. It's hard to think clearly when you are reacting. And 2. It is reasonable to state that partly out of fairness, you don't want to completely oust one grandmother, and then let the other one have everything she wants. And this is true too.

Tina

anyway. Its like I don't have a brain and

deal with than a brick wall at times.

She won't be able to get on ft riley after next

allowed to even SEE these kids, ever, much

is a thread about it archived on google (OT

bitch near me or the kids.

c-section I'll be kept for a minimum of 72

already to keep me double the length that HP

died because of a staph infection that went to my

| 3. Think long and hard about the sterilization. What if, god forbid, you | were in an accident and you lost your children.

IMO, my kids could not be replaced. By the time I recovered from the grief as much as one can after loosing a child, of loosing them, I would most likely be too old to give birth again. I feel that my kids are a gift to me from a Higher Power, and if the Higher Power thinks that their "number is up" then I will mourn them, remember them, and celebrate the short time that I had them. Knowing how I deal with grief, I probably would never want to try to have more. I will probably feel that my role as a parent was only supposed to last that long. There is also adoption. I could adopt. I could take a child that has no parents and give them parents. I think that its impossible for me to love an adopted child less than a genetic child.

Maybe I have a weird point of view on this, but I'm just basing it on the fact that I was born to a 14 year old child...she gave me up for adoption because she knew that she couldn't provide for me all the things that I would need provided. I'm grateful because I didn't have to be a burden to a 14 yo child, and I'm also grateful that there were people out there that couldn't have kids that decided that they would love me and treat me like I *was* a genetic child. Even as many problems that I have with my parents, as big of a PITA my mom can be, as nosy, pushy, opinionated, rude as she can be, I still love her. I have never seen her as anything besides my mom, and if it weren't for her, I could have wound up a child of the state, bouncing from foster home to foster home, never having much to call my own, not knowing what it feels like to have a mom kiss your boo boo's, and not having someone to turn to when you *really* need them (yes, she has been there for me most of the time when I really needed her.), or having someone to turn to for advice. If it wasn't for mom, I probably would still burn water and mix the reds in with the whites.

There are a lot of babies born each year to young, unwed mothers, or families that just aren't ready emotionally or financially to raise a kid, and the kid gets put up for adoption. A lot of them never wind up with a family to call their own. That is why DH and I decided that adoption is an option if we decide that we want more kids. We could do for another child what was done for me. Give them a forever family, one that will always be "theirs" even if they aren't genetically related. Give them a stable loving family. I know of several couples in my community that are fully capable of having kids, but decided to adopt instead. I know of one family that they had one child genetically, she had a rough pregnancy and delivery, and from that point on, they adopted. They have

4 kids now, 3 of them are adopted.

I'm a big "pro choice" person (not my body, not my choice type of thing....even though the "other" alternative saddens me deeply), and don't hesitate to talk about adoption to my young friends that get pregnant and don't want to keep the baby. I tell them my own story, and my best friends story (She and her brother and sister were also adopted, all of them got adopted by the same family), as a way to try to show them that there are other options and there are people out there that can give their child the home that they deserve. My friends call me the "adoption advocate". I also talk to them about how hard it is to be a mom....especially a single one. I let them know that its their choice, and regardless of how I feel about their choice, I will be there for them. Then I help them find methods of birth control that work for them, and that they won't have a problem sticking to. (two such young ladies I was there for during their pregnancy and delivery (their parents wanted nothing to do with it), and helped both of them find resources for birth control (one kept her baby, one chose adoption))

Yes, DH and I wanted another baby, but we also decided early in the pregnancy, after much prayer, thought and sessions with both chaplains and therapists, that we would have no more than three kids. The having the third kid was totally dependant on how this particular pregnancy went. If this pregnancy was rough on me like the first was, that is where we were stopping, and one or both of us was going to get fixed. DH offered. I didn't have to suggest the thought to him, and I have even tried to talk HIM out of it despite my desire to have the tubal. We decided to both get fixed because if one method is pretty good, then two methods would be better. The chances of getting pregnant after the woman has had a tubal and the man has had a vasectomy are astronomical according to the doc. She said in all her years as an OBGYN, she has NEVER seen a woman get pregnant after both parties have been sterilized.

I hope that you can see my point of view a little better now...

Hugs Karlee in Kansas

Hi Karlee,

You sound like a sensible person who has thought thru you decisions. I'm only going to add my 2 cents on the last issue.

Sterilization is a very difficult decision, I have made the same decision but for different reasons. I also have a sister that was given no choice on the decision, medical reasons and was faced with the 2nd husband thing. She like every one else learned that if some one really loves and wants to be your mate, they will accept you as you are, not as a breeding vessel. Her present husband has no children of his own blood but helped with her two as if they were his blood. This has been going on for 19 years and they now have 4 grandchildren and I would dare anyone to try and say they are not his g-babies.

So you go girl. You make us all proud.

aka Trish

Ummm, yeah, I can completely oust one grandmother. After her history of abuse towards me and my son (previous marriage), her nieces, nephews, and her OWN kids, I'm not going to put my kids through that. Besides, once the baby is born, my son from the previous marriage will drop off the planet in her eyes. There will be no Christmas cards, no hugs, no birthday wishes for him.

Her actions towards me in the last few months, and her actions towards children in general, do not warrant her getting any kind of rights. (I have already talked to a lawyer about this in case she decides to pursue it by those means) I don't reward my kid for bad behavior, and I'm not going to reward her for bad behavior. She has called me every name in the book, tried to get DH to divorce me (none of her "evidence" was provable by her, and DH knows me better than that anyway), hurt my son so deeply that he wants nothing to do with her (at 6 no less....and mandated to me that if he EVER had to be around her again, he was moving to his dad's house), she has lied to me, she has lied to DH, and recently he completely disowned her.

My mother does not get everything that she wants from me. She gets to take my son when it is convenient for me and DH, not when she gets a wild hair. I don't ask her to baby-sit for me either. My kids, my responsibility. She has been wanting for the past 5 months to come up here and organize and decorate for me (according to her I can't do either with any aptitude) and since we have been here, hasn't made so much as a trip by the house because I don't want her to. My mother is only allowed the freedoms that I give her with my family. If she were to pull the same stunts that DH's mom has pulled, she wouldn't be allowed near the kids either.

I have said before that I know that I can't protect my children from everything. I *can* however protect them from abuse at the hands of this woman. Simple solution to a simple problem. Don't let the kids near the abuser.

Hugs Karlee in Kansas

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Karen_AZ" :

]Me, I'm winging it with a reasonably neat man (by man-standards) ]and two amazingly oblivious kids. They're trainable but it's slow. And ]we LIVE in our home, it's not a showplace. Big difference in standards. (And ]I bet this sounds really familiar, too.)

ah!!!!! i don't have the "reasonably neat by man standards" around, but yes. i definitely LIVE in my house. at least i'm not alone!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

Bill of Rights - Void where prohibited by Law.Regime Change in 2004 - The life you save may be your own.

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 15:31:59 -0400, Karlee in Kansas wrote (in message ):

I agree with you, 100%. She sounds like a real psycho. (I mean that in the nicest way, of course)

I wonder if your mom is trying to convince herself that she is still a valuable and necessary part of your life. I can understand that all her feelings of insecurity (about adopting, not being your "real" mother, perhaps her own infertility) are coming to the surface now that you're having children of your own.

My own mom goes through ups and downs where she feels insecure, as do we all. When we give her a bit of reassurance, things settle down. The thing where she says you can't organize anything on your own - it strikes a chord with me. That's such a trivial thing, for her to latch onto it makes me think that there's other stuff going on.

Were it me, I'd probably send my mom a note or some flowers, saying "Thanks for being my mom. I don't know what I'd do without you. I'll always love you."

I know that would reassure her, and she'd calm down.

You bet. But keep a careful eye on her. My dad wasn't allowed near DD when she was small, but he's changed and she's grown up. DD is now allowed to be with my dad and his wife whenever she chooses, and things are all right. Your MIL might change (although chances are slight), and if your husband can have some kind of mutually beneficial relationship with his mother, it's all good. (That would also prevent a lot of "what if's" and guilt once she's gone. Because no matter how sucky she is, she's still his mother.)

Kathy N-V

Celine,

I think you've hit it on the head! I know a mother who still needs to have control over her two adopted children, who are now in their forties. Scary.

Diane

snip

I am. I don't voice my opinion about it anymore because people get angry, but believe me, you're not the only one that worries about this.

Why is adoption such a dirty word? My soulmate and partner was adopted, and thank goodness for it too.

I think it is your body, your baby, your future ... and therefore your choice. Nobody knows better what is good for you, than you. They may think they know better, but they aren't inside you ... so they are ignorant of many of the most significant factors that only an -inside- perspective would give them.

Deirdre

all my glory whilst I feel terribly

hospital room into a major hub of

labor, and delivery, and two kids, that

I wasn't suggesting that you include your MIL, but rather that it is fair to say that neither grandmother gets to have everything, and, IF YOU WANT, you can make "fairness" part of the reason to tell your mother to hold back.

Tina

abuse towards me and my son (previous

kids through that. Besides, once the baby is

eyes. There will be no Christmas cards, no

children in general, do not warrant her getting

she decides to pursue it by those means) I

bad behavior. She has called me every name in

provable by her, and DH knows me better than that

no less....and mandated to me that if he EVER

lied to me, she has lied to DH, and recently he

take my son when it is convenient for me and DH,

My kids, my responsibility. She has been

for me (according to her I can't do either with

by the house because I don't want her to. My

were to pull the same stunts that DH's mom

everything. I *can* however protect them from

Don't let the kids near the abuser.

Maybe you could have signal to your dh when you get tired of the visitors and your dh can leave to say maybe run out for a soda or coffee and stop at the nurses station and ask your nurse to come in with some sort of excuse that visitors have to leave because they need to do a procedure on you or maybe the nurse could say your blood pressure is really high and you need to be in a quiet setting for awhile. Just an idea. You can work this out in advance. I'm really happy for you. Congrats on the upcoming birth of your new baby. Hopefully it won't be as painful as the first.

Jo Jo

I agree with this completely. In fact, it sounds from your description of your first delivery as if the whole family never learned to recognize other people's boundaries, and to know where their life (and power and responsibility) ends and the other person's begins.

Deirdre

Yeah ... pretty much. If we paid attention we'd have to think about the consequences.

Deirdre

Vbac is Vaginal Birth After Caesarean. I only know cause my sis had two vbacs ..at home no less.. after a c-section for the first birth. Diana

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What is a VBAC?