How do I setup a studio/workshop for Hydrofluoric Acid Etching?

It would be cheaper, safer and much easier to get a sandblasting set-up.

^TahirKanch^ wrote:

I actually have been giving some thought to this lately and having some questions myself. I have zero experience with sandblasting. Can you achieve "gradients" on removing flashed glass with sandblasting like you can with acid etches? All of the sandblasted flashed glass work I've seen has had *all* of the flashing removed.

-Ray

snipped-for-privacy@yahoo.com wrote:

You are in the wrong topic to be looking for "cheaper", this is the only topic in glass which I refuse to participate in. The risks are too high, all of the "old guys" that did it are gone, there are no old , experienced people left to talk to. Does that tell you anything?

the large glass houses that would use acid etched panels have found it cheaper and more productive to silk screen ceramic frit and run it thru a tempering oven, (spell all that big $$$$) than to resort to HF etching.

There is NO "cheaper than" when dealing with HF, and damn few hospitals have seen the damage done by an acid that poisons AND burns, and is attracted by Calcium. You know, that stuff your bones are made of...

If you have the experience in another country, go do it there, somebody will get hurt here if you need those answers to those questions before you even start.

Nasty stuff whose results in the art glass world can be replicated in other , safer ways.

There is a Yahoo group called "sandcarving" that might be helpful.

If you're going to be doing this yourself, with no employees, OSHA has no say in the matter. Their job is to protect your employees from you, not protect you from yourself. Local codes are in place to protect the general public from you. Having worked with large amounts of HF for 20 years, I would suggest you abandon the idea. I carried a card in my wallet in case burns became noticeable after I was away from work. It explained the medical procedures necessary and numbers to call for advice.

Not sure what you want to do but I find it hard to believe it couldn't be accomplished via sandblasting and/or wheel carving. To complete the job and attain the finish you want, you could then send the piece to Crystal Traditions in Tiffin, Ohio.

would be cheaper, safer, and much wiser.

With practice, you can remove exactly what you want.

I would argue that the look of acid etching cannot be duplicated by simply sandblasting. For one, the process of sandblasting destroys the transparency of the the glass which acid etching retains. To achieve a similar effect, you would need to fire polish the sandblasting afterwards, and even that is still not as "clear" as the HF approach.

That said, it is nearly impossible to find any studio in the US that still acid etches. This has more to do with safety regulations and insurance than a preference for sandblasting. It is possible to build a facility that can safely acid etch very large glass surfaces, but you would need to spend a lot of money to do it right. There can be no short cuts with something so dangerous.

(As a digression here is a story about my first HF attempt: Etching a small piece of flashed glass in a plastic darkroom tray, I set my operation up outside using a large fan to blow the fumes away from me. The etching was uneventful & successful. However, within two weeks the mature pine tree twenty feet downwind of my etching station was dead! At the time I remember seeing the fumes blowing towards it and gave it no further thought. HF is as dangerous as everyone says.)

There are a couple of German studios with very nice acid etching rooms. They have sophisticated ventilation systems and employees wear a lot of safety gear! Perhaps you should try and get a job with them to learn how to do it safely.

If you do decide to build such an operation in the USA, let me know. You will get some of my business!

--Cactus

^TahirKanch^ wrote:

Thank you! A person who has seen the results after HF etching would never believe sandblasting would bring the same effect. It is totally different I believe the texture, translucency and the polished finished cannot be duplicated by any other method, well one could try to get the best closest result but I am willing to bet it still won't be the same thing.

Thanks everyone for all the good advices. But I stand with the same determination I had before I started the discussion. I need to find how to make a setup here that is compliant to all the regulation.

If anyone can please help me directions as how to setup an acid etching facility and any equipment that's used in the setup, it would be a great help.

Also I am still confused What is the equipment or setup that's OSHA approved? Where can I find it?

I now understand there are no shortcuts in setting up an acid etching facility. I am willing to spend the high dollars but I need all the help or advise I can get as to how to 'efficiently design' that setup?

Thanks for all the comments folks. Please keep 'em coming.

Cactus Bob wrote:

The best people to ask, are the people that will do the inspecting and regulating, they are gov'mnt officials and work for the taxpayer. If they can not answer your questions, they will know the consultants to help do things correctly and in compliance.

They can also keep an eye on your ass in case you are a terrorist intent on poisoning our water supply!

Try:

't have to be straight HF. Can be ABF with a little HF for bite.

Hi Harry,

Thanks for the advice. Went to the Fire Marshall's office after asking a few people in the city office. All he cared about was I should be in compliance. Didn't know any consultants though. But that is a good direction to go with I believe. I'll try to dig out some consulting firms don't know what they are called though.

So I guess, this initiates another subsidiary quest in search of my lost kingdom :)

Harry wrote:

First of all, stop being such a top poster, get your response to the bottom so everybody can follow it, lots easier.

Next, there is a trade magazine called GLASS which is meant for the residential/ commercial glaziers and factory operators. There are sources in there for everythng glass related, try looking online for the online version, if I can dig up an old copy, I'll post info here for you. there is aclassified listing in the back for everything from automated bevelers to full tempering lines and the consultants who design their layout, same sort of guys can design your set up, all in compliance with all regulations.... THAT is where you start at, and please, put it as close to the Rio Grande River as possible. That way it is far away from me, and that river is already a pit, what can you hurt?

I've been thinking about this post since it first appeared on the newsgroup.

Your name sounds just a little bit too middle-Eastern for my tastes.

Even if I were a world-reknown expert on acid etching, I'd just be damned if I'd give any information about this deadly toxic material and how to use it to some newbie on a usenet group. This all reminds me too much of a bunch of SOB's who wanted to learn to fly about 5 years ago. It seems to me that IF you were a "for-real" glass artisan, you'd have some previous posts somewhere on usenet, that you'd have a URL pointing to your work in a gallery or a website. Instead, you are wanting to know how to set up a commercial operation from scratch.

Just makes me wonder if you really want to etch glass or if you want to put HF into, oh, say, maybe aerosol bombs to set off in subways or stadiums?

ewww, Moon! Just because of his name???? Puhleeze! Does this mean you wouldn't help someone named Timothy (i.e. McVeigh), especially if his header showed he was from Oklahoma? C'mon...there are over 1.2 million Arab-Americans in the US and nearly 2 million Muslims in Britain. Are we to fear them all and assume they are ALL out to get us? I'd rather be cutting glass...

You really should look into entering Bruce Schneier's contest for Movie Plot Threats. Here's a pointer:

He explains it a lot better than I can hope to. He really is a respected U.S. security guy, though I admit his name sounds just a little European for my tastes.

Mike Beede

Never trust anyone named "Timothy" or "Bruce".

Scratch

FlameNw> ewww, Moon! Just because of his name???? Puhleeze! Does this mean you

Hi Moonraker,

Thanks for your input.

As far as the name, it is half middleeastern half indian. I am from Karachi. Glass (Now Architectural Glass Art since 1998) is in my family business since 30 years. I learnt glass art desgining from my family in India and have practiced it for 4 years in Karachi. website's under construction I really didn't want to give it out yet but it's

For now the only work on the site that I have done is: you are skeptical you might argue that I haven't done this andthat's your issue but still I want to add that I used an acid etchingtechnique here also known as French Emboss for this Table top.Multi-staged (dipped and washed several times) polishing to achievedifferent levels of depth and the clear finished design work. Thesurface never gets dirty like the sandblasted surfaces do. The resultis a smooth, plain finish and is only paper deep. But after playingwith textures along with the matt and glossy finishes plus combiningthat technique with fusing bevelled crystals onto the glass in myopinion becomes a priceless jewel after it's creation. I can work withnumerous textures which all produce an unbelievable effect after properlighting and provides privacy as well as showers ample of light intothe room through the translucent textures. This is my baby. I love doing this. I want to do this safely and be compliant with all the regulations before I start.

As far as the people who wanted to learn how to fly only for the sake of hurting anyone, terrorism for that matter were insane fundamentalists, SOB's or whatever you want to call them I totally agree with you on that one.

Your taste and your preference not to share information is your right I have no issues with that. Being polite is always nice but I do understand your frustration. If I were a person who hadn't been to asia or didn't have any friends from a different culture I'd probably be like you as well. So I have no hard feelings. I guess I have talked too much about this topic, which is totally off the point and a waste of my time and yours. We both could be doing something valuable rather than talking about this. Just so to let you understand:

*****I am trying to figure out a very safe and 'in-compliance' setup to work with the acid here NOT asking around on how to use it and absolutely DO NOT have and can never have any intention of even thinking about thinking to hurt anyone with anything.*****

And yes I am new here. I never ever imagined this discussion would become so useful to me. I have never used any discussion boards, blogs or anything like that. I was just tired of doing my research on web searching google, alta vista, ask jeeves etc. and I just gave this a try as a last resort. I expected nothing out of this but I am really amazed to how active, prompt and useful this discussion board has been. I really appreciate all ya'll's input in this especially Bob and Ed you guys were really helpful and a Big Thank You to you both.

I hope that cleared your concerns Moonraker and others' as well. I could have ignored your message but since you were the second person to mention this I felt I should share my thoughts here.

Regards, Tahir.

Mo> > Hi,

Well, Lori...

at the time, McVeigh and his buddies didn't appear suspicious by buying fertilizer and diesel oil, either. And, they were a group of anarchists that hated the US government, not religious fanatics that hate everyone who isn't a fellow raghead.

When the Muslim clerics say that they want "death to the infidels", one can only make the assumption that they are not just blowing smoke, so to speak. If you don't think we are deeply engaged in a holy war, you are, I'm afraid, hiding your head in the sand. Fear the Arabs?...no! Trust them? Not as far as I could throw a grand piano.

On Sept 12, 2001 I made a decision that I would never directly do business with an Arab again. I have walked into, and right back out of convenience stores, donut shops, and other businesses with an Arab behind the counter. I have turned down LOTS of leaded glass repairs (several thousands of $$$ worth) from folks named Muhammed or the like. I would rather sit in the shop and play solitare than have to deal with one. I'm sure my one-man boycott of Arab-owned businesses in the US hasn't caused any of them to go back where they came from, but, I can hope. Why do business with someone who hates me because I'm American, caucausian, and Christian?

Other than the aforementioned McVeigh and a few Irishmen who have a problem with the Queen, there's been darn little happen in the way of terrorism in the last few decades around the globe that wasn't directly attributable to Muslims. So, are they ALL out to get us? Dunno. Problem is, a good number of them are, and which ones?

And some nimrod coming on a news group without any apparent history of glass artisanry and being willing to throw lots of money at a system to handle HF sure does make this old grey head wonder. I have a pretty good bullshit detector, and it went off, big time, on this thread.

Contact DuPont chemical. I believe they are a large manufacturer of the stuff in Texas.

From my experience, I would wear what is known as an "A" Suit. Heavy rubber, zips to the neck with a hood and supplied breathing air. Usually bright pink so that sane people can avoid you.

Jack