'splain to me about 'band saws'

I doubt that it's 99%... maybe closer to 60%? I do both and I don't find foil easier in the least. The time it takes to foil each piece is probably a wash with the soldering time you save with came. It's purely your taste. My brother was a foil snob, who believed that Tiffany's foiling was the only way to do anything in glass. He would actually relead old came windows with foil! In his mind it was an improvement, and he was very successful.

i'm surprised to hear you guys singing the praises of lead... i'm sure it has its place, but how can it compare to foil when it comes to intricate designs? plus, foil should last a lot longer, shouldn't it... what's the 'life span' of a leaded window? doesn't it have to be shored up every 15 years or so? maybe longer..i don't know because i don't like lead.. not at all. too klunky for me...but i understand why you might like it... aesthetically, i don't...

and maybe i'm a purist...i think Tiffany did some wonderful windows...that could never have been done with lead...

arlene

I think it was some dickweed in Vancouver, eh?

Foil will always be viewed as a sissy, girly, newbie, hobby medium to the "real men" that use lead came. I do agree that foil does look better in many applications, but a true camer will always think that thread lead is equal to foil in appearance. The one negative to be said about lead is that it's really really dirty and messy. You can do foil in your home. I use both equally.

well, there you go...first of all, the 'real men' quote should be a dead give away what's really going on here (!!!) but i don't see how anyone can possibly equate the work of Louis B. Tiffany with 'hobby medium'....

as a non-leader...what's 'thread lead'??

i'm sure there are times when lead is the correct medium of choice...but i have no desire to use it...but then again, my work isn't klunky and large scale...

just how 'thin' can you get lead lines with came? i guess i haven't looked hard enough for work done in lead came...what i remember of it, isn't that attractive.. at least to my eye....point me in a direction so i can see a finished lead project.. remember, i've been away from this field for years...maybe it 'got beautiful' in the interium....???

arlene

In the past two weeks, another artisan and I restored 3 windows that were about 100 yrs old, all made with 1/8" lead. These are very delicate designs, 1 of the panels had about 300 pieces, the other two had about 200 and 100 each.

The worst part about the thin lead is that there isn't much glass coverage with the leaf of the lead, and therefore, not much room to cement the panels for waterproofing and rigidity.

But when you have less than 3/64" tolerance on a piece and these panels were made before the advent of the electric grinder, it's right remarkable that they could cut these intricate designs and even build a window of the intricacy of these.

Personally, I like the look of came better than foil, even in a small panel. What is dirty and messy about lead is the cementing part...and if you know how to do it, even that isn't too bad. I'm trying to get JavaHut to make me a video tape on cementing. :

Mr. Raker,

I need to SEE what you're talking about...can you send me a photo? I did a google search for leaded windows and still didn't see anything that compared to Tiffany...is there a place to see what you are talking about? number of pieces isn't a good way to demonstrate your point... i want to see what you mean. if possible, send it to my email address please.

thanks

i'm a foiler myself, don't care for the look of came nor the cementing process. I also don't want to have to restore my work 20 years from now. m <

Are you saying your foiled work is used in exterior applications?

Your hung up on Tiffany, not the only person to compare to of that era, and Tiffany certainly used lead cames as often as anyone else. He wasn't the "end all, be all" of stained glass. He just hired the people that knew how to do it. and he knew how to promote his work. I say "his" because it is the name on the building/company, he just had the money and some great design ideas that he passed on to his glass designers, and glaziers who knew how to execute.

The "art pieces" with small piece construction used a great deal of foil IN COMBINATION WITH lead came. Morse Museum of American Art, Winter Park, FL, send them an email and ask their exalted opinion on the matter. LaFarge used lead, Maitland Armstrong did as much, if not more intricate work as anyone else and used lead. Why do you need to see? Detail is detail, if you take a piece of 1/8"lead to go around a flower petal, or use a piece of 3/16 foil on it, when you include a gap for heart, you are the same size with the same coverage and your foil has no weatherproofing. but yes, it is a stiffer material.

For someone that has had a stained glass studio in the past, you sure don't know much, regardless of the time away. What sort of things did you do? Only in foil and on a small scale? Without a grinder, and bet you don't groze either. Name Isenberg ring a bell?

yes, but i protect it with a sheet of tempered on the exterior which allows the client the option of removing the piece if they sell the home. It also allows removal in the event of hurricanes, and keeps the neighbor from bankruptcy if their kid throws a baseball, a golfer hits a slice, or the yard guy throws a rock. The cheapo clear glass takes the hit.

So, it's not exposed to the elements.

I just wonder how frequently you'd be "restoring" those panels if they were not protected with the safety glass?

hey, Mr. Lurker...

you sure sound like a genuine Tiffany expert.

I was wondering, do you know if the Tiffany studios employed the "turbo soldering" techniques that seem to be so popular now in production glass studios?

Not as often as churches do, they all use plexi or glass around here to protect and they still need restoring every once in a while. It's been 30 plus years and i have yet to need to restore any of my work. I actually have one large, heavy sucker that i did in '74, it has been more places than most people, has a couple cracked pieces, but no bowing, no fatigue. I say we should all agree to disagree as we'll never give up our own opinion over lead vs. foil. (or top vs bottom posting ;>) m

Ya know? I think foil has it's place. Making silly little sailboats, for example.

Seriously...I have foil panels I made 20+ years ago that are just fine. I just would never expose a foiled panel to the elements. There's a guy nearby that makes 4'x4' and larger bath windows with foil. I think he's crazy, but people keep buying them. He installs them without any other glazing......!!!!

I'm not "anti-foil", per se. I just prefer to work with lead. Foiling aggravates me because I can't make the lines "perfect", as smooth and straight and even as I can the lead lines. A lot of what I do has bevels in it, and I just don't believe that 1.5mil copper is strong enough to handle the extra weight of the bevels.

And I bottom posted this one just to show you I know how!!! ;S>...I just started back through re-reading all those magazines you sent me. Thanks again.

Dear Lurker...(do you have a name?)

i dont' think you have any right to question what i did 20 years ago...you don't have a clue...where did you get the idea that i didn't have a grinder? i just never had a band saw..and i'm not sure i want one...what is your point or are you just trying to pick a fight here? i happen to have a preference for foil...does this make me a fraud? a horrible person? what is your problem?

i asked for photos...not words...Moonraker sent me a recent piece he restored.. yes, it's gorgeous...but it's NOT Tiffany...

...it seems to me that many many of the great names in art (not just glass) have all had artisans doing the 'grunt' work for them...it's nothing new... Tiffany had a flare all his own...sure, there are others.. Michaelangelo wasn't the only one who left his name in art history...what's your problem with that? If i say i'm crazy about Van Gogh, do you think i have to like all of the Impressionists equally as well??? I happen to like what Tiffany did and the era in which he did it...

calm down...can you criticize without throwing stones???

sheesh...

arlene

Just to clarify....I never said it WAS Tiffany, nor did I intend to imply that it was.

And as a further clarification, the lead in that panel was 5/32", not

Try reading what i wrote with a different (less antagonistic) tone to your voice.. YOU never SAID it was Tiffany...i said 'it's not Tiffany'...

No one said it was Tiffany...the context is 'i like the look of Tiffany...but as gorgeous as this piece is...it's NOT Tiffany'...

why is everyone so contentious? why are you all waiting to counter-attack all the time? what's with this retaliation post after post?

it's like trying to talk to a bunch of third graders during recess!!

sheesh!!! aga> >

Ummmm?

I just didn't want any misunderstandings. I knew it wasn't LCT, you knew it wasn't LCT, but some of the less attentive folks might have gotten the wrong impression.

Somebody please pass Arlene the bowl of Prozac.