asking experts

Just an observation -- it seems perfectly reasonable for folks on newsgroups to solicit advice and opinions, make comments, etc. concerning the topics of the newsgroups. However, it continues to amaze me that people on this and other groups actually ask for legal advice, medical advice, tax advice, etc. (not for support during a problem, but for actual advice) First, do they really intend to rely on the answers they get? Do they simply collect opinions from a variety of "experts" and take the concensus to their personal attorneys, physicians, CPAs? (which, by the way, is not an appropriate use of your time and money, and causes no end of frustration to the attorneys, physicians, and CPAs) How on earth do they know who the "experts" are who reply? Are they really experts or pseudo-expert amateurs and wanna-be's? I happen to be a member of one of the professions mentioned herein, and have discussed this matter with members of my profession and other professions, and here is the general gist: no real professional in his or her right mind would consider responding to a request for professional advice from a stranger in a newsgroup! To do so brings up all sorts of issues about doctor-patient, attorney-client, CPA-client relationships -- once a relationship is established, there are clear professional responsibilities and definite liabilities to the professional. There is also no privacy privilege or expectation. Therefore, most of us simply watch the threads go by, and never respond to those requests, whether simple or complex. It's not a matter of income preservation for us, but protection for both the questioner and responder. (We also enjoy leaving work at the office, and surf the net as leisure.) So folks, CAVEAT EMPTOR. Please raise these questions directly with your physician, pharmacist, nurse, attorney, accountant. You can have a real discussion, get advice that is very carefully tailored to your personal situation and issue, and have someone who is properly licensed and who will be accountable to you.

Reply to
Mary
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So when you get the feeling that one of these "certified professionals" just might be screwing you over, are you supposed to bend over and keep taking it? No, you go ask your family and friends if the things the professional does/says seem reasonable. If you consider the folks on the newsgroup to be your family/friends, that is who you ask. Unless someone specifically mentions in a post that they are not consulting a professional, you have no way of knowing whether they are relying solely on responses to their post or whether they are posting as a fail-safe against fraudulent professionals. Like it or not, there are people who have a professional license who are at best incompetent and at worst outright crooked.

It is also the case that times that require the consultation of these professionals are often not happy occasions. Misery loves company so by posting their woes they can receive commiseration.

Thirdly, how many times do people meet with a professional and then have to call back a dozen times with more questions or things they forgot to mention? If you consult others first, they can help you form a list of questions and issues to bring up at the appointment. That IS an efficient use of one's time and money.

And finally, can you PROVE that none of the people responding to these questions holds a professional license? Or perhaps they have retired from the office but still want to volunteer to help others by sharing their knowledge? So you claim to be a professional and you do not wish to share your knowledge with people here. That is your right. Don't cover it up with the one-to-one professional-client relationship thing; if the questions are asked and answered in an international public forum, implying the existence of such privilege is asinine on both parts.

By the way, I added the appr> Just an observation -- it seems perfectly reasonable for folks on

Reply to
Brenda Lewis

Mary i tottaly agree with you about Legal, medical, anf other matters that concern private matters like you described. I don`t see any harm in asking people about their opinions on books they read, needle work patterns and or materials and or tools. I also don`t dee any harm when people ask about how crafts and fashions are seen and practised in other countries. I read this ng for along time , and only answered needlecraft matters when one day i saw people, having opinions about my people and our history, and our country. Most of those opinions weren`t accurate. In this case i found that it had to answer those opinions. As to proffesional matters related to my people, ther was a case of somebody asking some explanation of something she embroidered in Hebrew, I answered her, and sombody here adviced her not to listen to my explanation but to go ask a priest, who according to that someone would know Hebrew better than me . Of course in matters of History & language one can not do much harm, Only harm is that the writer of the original `mistaken fact` , will not change opinion, and keep the false knowledge, pity but not life threatening. In medicine and the other Subjects you nentioned , there might be some personal danger or loss involved. I used to wonder about it like you do, but after i saw how people didn`t `listen` to `expert` language or Historical corrections, i sytopped woorying, i don`t think they will really listen to the Medical , legal advice etc... mirjam

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

Amen to that. The law requires medical records to be accurate. There's so much fiction in mine, I just might sell them as a novel. He didn't think he was breaking the law, because he put down what he "knew" I meant to say.

Thankfully, one of my RCTN friends in the medical field let me know what my legal rights are when dealing with doctors who ignore what the patient says.

Reply to
Karen C - California

It has been my experience that One can learn a great deal from the opinions and experiences of others, especially when these opinions relate to first hand experience in dealing with medical problems and yes legal problems. For example when my daughter was having immigration problems it was suggested to me that she should find a lawyer that specialized in this field and indeed a very kind offer from a member of this group to put me in contact with a firm in that area she had first hand knowledge and experience with. In exchanging information on this news group I learn a lot in the same way I do sitting around my local stitching group discussing various topics. Sometimes it is just comforting to know that others know where you are coming from because they experience or have experienced similar problems and through that experience garnered knowledge that can be quite helpful to others. Because we are such a diverse group from all over the world it is sometimes the case that there are new treatments for illness or studies being carried out that have yet to trickle down to my area. I have learned some very useful tips for living with my chronic illnesses that have improved the quality of my life through listening to the experiences of others on this news group and other groups. I accept the information in the spirit it is given here, which is usually coming from the experience of the writer either personal or professional. What amazes me is that people who are not interested in these OT topics continue to read them , offer there opinions and complaints instead of just skipping or deleting them. yes I know the subject lines do not often change to relate to the twist in the conversation to an OT subject but usually I know by the first sentence of the message that the topic has changed and simply delete those I am not interested in. You might try it. Ruby

On 9 May 2006 19:18:47 -0700, "Mary" wrote:

Reply to
Stitcher

Having been the mother of a child with a very rare, very selective, genetic disease, rarely more than 400 reported cases in the world at one time, I need to disagree to some extent with what you say.

When my daughter was young, one of the most comforting and helpful things I ever did was to join a group of other parents of kids with this disorder. Doctors knew very little (and still know very little) about how to handle the everyday problems, which were major, and looked to us, the people who spent most of our time observing and caring for these kids, for information on what to look for. The smarter ones always asked us if we heard anything about this particular situation from others. It was somewhat because of these people that my husband and I were able to cope with our terrible problems.

I think people on this newsgroup use this very diverse group of people in much the same way. They commiserate, they qvetch and complain, they ask if anyone has any good ideas to right their imagined wrong, and most of all they vent. How they use the information they get is up to them, but I suspect that most of us are smart enough to take the information to the proper place and I doubt many of us are dumb enough to take it as gospel.

I think doctors have medical conferences to see if someone has an idea they haven't thought of, and lawyers meet to discuss clients and how to handle their problems, and I know most CPA's will ask someone to check up on what they have done to be sure they're making the right decision. We use this group in much the same way. We listen, we think and then we make our own decisions.

Thanks for listening.

Lucille

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Reply to
Lucille

Brenda i feel that Mary has voiced , very clearly some issues that Bug me as well . In no way is this group a family, maybe some are friends. [And both these groups can also have inner debates and disagreements]. This days most people can read on Proffesional groups, or specialilty groups about their ailmnts and other problems, and than come prepared with valid questions, to their Appointments, this is true, but i have also seen cases , [even on this NG] where wrong answers, have been given, or advice that might endanger the person asking. Another danger in giving such advice , or in seeking it , is that no two people are the same , nore are so many ailments the same. If somebody is allergic to something and doesn`t know it, taking some over the counter medicine, that helped Others , might be dangerous to that one, and having no profssional at his side ,, might endanger that one. mirjam

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

doctor-patient, attorney-client, CPA-client relationships -- once a relationship is established, there are clear professional responsibilities and definite liabilities to the professional. There is also no privacy privilege or expectation.

I can only speak to my own personal experience, both asking for and giving advice. And it's been a long time since I participated here at RCTN so I don't know anymore how people here are handling it.

However, in my other groups, requests for advice among the forum are primarily written in a way that fairly clearly implies that the author is looking for a starting point or to verify something they were told by another person (who may or may not be an acknowledged expert).

In my most active forum, for example, we do have several attorneys, CPAs, medical professionals in a wide variety of specialties, etc., as well as support staff for many of the same professions and individuals that have been on the "other" end of a given situation (such as three people currently going through chemotherapy treatments for various forms of cancer). Almost always, when we provide such advice, we state that "I am not giving this advice in my offiical capacity" or other similar disclaimer. And I think I can fairly confidently say that we're not going to get into the level of personalization that a hired professional would with a client, partly because we're not taking on a client relationship and partly because we're doing this during our leisure time to help a "friend", and very often spur of the moment in response to a post by someone else.

Absolutely. And in all things, not just online discussions about whether the prior owner of the home you just bought is liable for the real estate taxes or how to deal with a probate estate.

physician, pharmacist, nurse, attorney, accountant. You can have a real discussion, get advice that is very carefully tailored to your personal situation and issue, and have someone who is properly licensed

and who will be accountable to you.

But at what cost? My own boss charges $300 an hour. I sure as heck can't afford that! If I couldn't ask people I trusted a "give me a general feeling for what I've gotten into" type question so that I could proceed from there, I'd be far beyond broke!

Jenn L. back from the ether... for the moment, at least

Reply to
Jenn

As was pointed out earlier, we *can* help you use the time you pay for more efficiently.

My former law firm charged a minimum .15 hour for every phone call. You paid for 9 minutes, even if I just left a 30-second message on your answering machine. So, those "just one question" calls add up fast.

A friend was getting divorced in another state. Now, divorce law is not my strong suit, even in the state I live in, and I certainly don't pretend to know anything about divorce law in her state. But I could give her a list of questions that would get her the most answers in the least time. She just went in and read my carefully-worded questions verbatim. Not "what can you tell me about child support?", which was the vague question she asked me, but specifically "can we include medical insurance and college expenses in a child support order?" I didn't know what her local law said, but she got a better deal because I made sure she asked about the right things.

Her lawyer knew I was "Monday morning quarterbacking" him, and was a little more attentive to the details because he knew that I was reading every single document and sending her back to him with educated questions. More importantly, she wasn't paying him a couple hundred an hour to listen to her hysterics. I'd take her two-hour hissy fit and gel it down to a couple of succinct questions.

Reply to
Karen C - California

I think there is some confusion between getting support from a group like this one, and getting actual medical/legal/what-have-you advice from it.

When I had a scare about the possibility of Lupus or RA while also finding out for sure that I had the early stage of glaucoma, I came here. I got support from others with the same problems. I didn't relie on their medical advice, just took comfort from the fact that none if it meant the end of the world, that if they could survive with those diseases, so could I. I didn't have RA or Lupus, btw, and my glaucoma is 100% under control several years later.

Sometimes people here offer up suggestions, homeopathic medicines and the like. I will sometimes take the information given to my doctor to ask his opinion, if he thinks it's worth trying, I might try it. I am sure that most people offering their advice expect us to take this approach and would not be offended if we reported back that our doctor felt it was not the best option for us.

But when someone who has no medical degree, legal degree or any other advanced degree tries to convince us that they are an expert on a medical/legal/or other subject, and we that should take their advice without consulting an actual professional? Well, that's just crazy!

Caryn

Reply to
crzy4xst

I'll say again, some of us here might just be experts in a given situation because they have done considerable research. As I mentioned, my own daughter is going to be training two endos because they are not knowledgeable about a particular disorder. My daughter is. Karen has done considerable research on diseases that have affected her and keeps up on the latest trends and knowledge. My own doctor has told me I know more than she does about my own disorder.

So, yes. Some of us here can know a lot more than a professional about some situations.

That being said, I don't think anyone here is foisting their advice or opinions down anyone's throat. They are simply voicing their knowledge. If it annoys you, skip it.

Dianne

Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski

Are you saying that if you were diagnosed by an actual doctor with CFS or FMS that you would take Karen's advice over that of a specialist in that field?

Personally, I would rather consult medical experts, not some person on the internet who calls men and women who have spent years learning their profession quacks and liars just because she doesn't like the answers she gets from them. I wouldn't trust a layperson with an obvious personal agenda when it comes to my health.

If my common sense attitude annoys you, skip it.

Caryn

Reply to
crzy4xst

I don't think the only problems on earth are CFS or FMS so why are you so hung up on that? I think Dianne is simply pointing out that lay people can be experts on a particular medical problem and sometimes do know more than SOME doctors.

That's not always the case, but it is sometimes the case.

Common sense should tell you that there are times that you know your kids are having a problem when the doctor would just dismiss you as an overprotective mother. Don't you on occasion listen to your own instincts over the doctors who have spent years learning their profession but might just have skipped over your problem? I know I was faced too many times with doctors who admitted to me that they had no clue how to treat a problem because there simply was no one person who was an expert and no book that taught it to them. Doctors aren't 100% well versed in every single nuance they are faced with, any more than an individual person is.

You seem to be basing your opinions on your dislike of a single individual and not looking at the big picture at all.

Lucille

Reply to
Lucille

"Lucille" ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

Spot on Lucille! My doctor is willing to listen to anything I have to say on the subject of migraines because he knows my pain, and because as he himself says, I read everything I can on the subject. He is not able to read everything on every ailment and is wise enough to understand that and man enough to admit it.

Mine are not migraines that conveniently disappear, they are a real and present affliction and he and I are now both agreed, I have them for life, only death is going to win out over them lol

I know that both Karen and Ruby read everything they can on their subject and likely are also far more knowledgeable about same than their GP's. I may not have met Karen, but I do know Ruby very well, I regard her as a close friend and I see what she goes through and by extension, I expect Karen does too. It is not for ANY of us to dismiss it, it is unconscionable behaviour.

I am sorry Dianne's daughter is in such a position, but thank heavens she has doctors who understand this rather basic concept.

Reply to
lucretia borgia

I like Pat P a great deal, but I wouldn't take her medical advice without running it past a doctor first either. Paula is an EMT, and I've been known to pick her brain occasionally about medical stuff, but I ALSO see a doctor if I think it's important, even if she disagrees with it.

I don't trust doctors completely either, I replaced one for refusing to remove a lump from my breast for biopsy. I couldn't "wait and see if it grows" without going mad, so I went to a doctor willing to operate to perform the biopsy. My GP had urged me to get the biopsy, and I couldn't handle the stress of waiting 6 mos.

Here's the thing tho....I still went to ANOTHER DOCTOR, not some stranger holding up a sign stating "I am an expert, I know more than every doctor I've ever met" to get the lump taken out and tested.

I followed my instincts, yes, but acted with common sense.

I'm clearly not the only person here with personal biases and dislikes of others here. Dianne, Lucille, and Sheena have all displayed their personal dislike of me today, true to form!

Caryn

Reply to
crzy4xst

No one is even remotely suggesting not to consult with their physician or a specialist.

Good for you. That makes sense. You are admitting that some doctors don't have all the answers.

No one is suggesting that. But it *is* true that some people have so thoroughly researched a given ailment that they can offer some enlightening advice on forums such as this.

Having a difference of opinion and stating thus is not showing any dislike for you at all and it's presumptuous of you to intimate such behavior is taking place.

Dianne

Reply to
Dianne Lewandowski

You said in your post that your daughter and Karen both know more than doctors about their personal health issue, and argued with me when I said that one should see a doctor not just take the advise of a non-medical professional. Thus YOU suggested the above, and told me I was WRONG to say one should use common sense and run everything past your doctor.

I'm saying I used my common sense in this situation, I didn't ask a group of strangers on the internet for the answers I was seeking. I don't care how many books on breast health anybody here has read, a doctor had the answers I needed.

ROFL....you can't stand it when I hold up a mirror can you?

Caryn

Reply to
crzy4xst

Absolutely right! I was fortunate to have met someone on this board several years ago with information about 504 plans in the educational system that I hadn't learned *anywhere* else, and she was a godsend! Because of her bringing it up, I was able to go off and research and educate myself -- as well as tapping into her most excellent brain and network -- and it's not something I could have paid "experts" for. (They might exist, but even if they do, I couldn't afford it!)

And because of her I've made it my mission to pass the word along to other people in my situation (parent of a child with a chronic illness that needs accommodation), very many of whom have never heard of 504 Plans, either!

So the experts we encounter here are often people with life experience who can save each other the time and energy of "reinventing the wheel" every time.

Sue

Reply to
Susan Hartman

The only problem would be with anyone without the commonsense to go to a real professional but who would rather go by a self professed expert on here (possibly hoping to save on a consultation fee). Most of us are sensible enough not to take as gospel any "professional" advice given here by people we can`t possibly really know. All we know about most of them is what they tell us, which may or may not be true!

Sadly, it doesn`t do to assume that everyone you meet on here or anywhere has that commonsense, so I can certainly see where Mary`s coming from!

Most of what you get on a newsgroup is a just a quick, reactive sound-bite - nothing like the impression you can get from real and qualified discussion or information you get from a proper letter or email - it`s just not the place for lengthy and detailed personal discussion.

My oldest daughter is certainly an "expert" on her illness, but I certainly wouldn`t seek her advice should I ever be aflicted with her complaint! I`d go STRAIGHT to the professionals!

Pat P

Reply to
Pat P

Like I said earlier in this thread, there is asking for and getting support when you have a similar illness or problem to others here, and then there is relying on them for actual advice.

Caryn

Reply to
crzy4xst

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