Re: Way OT: Comic strip Pre Teena

"Dr. Brat"wrote >

I'm sorry. That's waaaaaay to close to home to be funny. > > Elizabeth (college professor and yes, I get crap like that for real) > --

Thinking back not so fondly to the days of "but Ms. P, I put it all into my own words". (explaining why they did not credit Descartes with his meditation, Shakespeare with his dialogue or the textbook author with her struggled over 3rd chapter" Dawne

Reply to
Dawne Peterson
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Yep - have gotten to try and explain that to DS a few times. It's made so much harder by certain teachers that want them to parrot back info (or worse, their opinions).

C
Reply to
Cheryl Isaak

That's because we need to do a hell of a lot more to educate our teachers, but it's hard to do that when the funding keeps getting cut.

Elizabeth (quick, somebody hide the soapbox!)

Reply to
Dr. Brat

We should take it off line anyway. It's not just about the money.

C
Reply to
Cheryl Isaak

Nah. In the long run, it's ONLY about the money. We don't spend enough to educate our teachers (loans and grants for college or masters's degrees) and we don't pay them enough to allow them to focus on their jobs (instead of moonlighting) or to retain the really good ones who can make more money doing something else. We say "oh they only work x hours a day 9 months a year" and don't take into account that they go home and grade and prepare for the next day and that they're only paid 9 months a year and have to find other income for the other three months. And people who don't have kids actually in school tend to totally undervalue the school system and resent whatever taxes they put towards it. Completely short-sighted.

Elizabeth (if you wanted to shut me up, you shouldn't have provoked me)

Reply to
Dr. Brat

And there are now a gazillion over-paid administrators per classroom teacher.

Some years ago, one of the poorer school districts here bought out the remaining years of the contract of their superintendent, let's call him John Smith. The replacement was even worse. The next year, John Smith was back. Did he say "I've already been paid for this year?" No. Did he give back the money for the buyout? No. They gave him a new contract, and paid him a second time for the same year of work.

And the next time that school district whined that they couldn't afford copy paper, the taxpayers suggested that they needed to spend their money more wisely than bringing back a failed superintendent and paying him TWICE for the same year of work. Apparently, this logic had gone right over the heads of the people who make the decisions.

Ditto, the administrative staff gets the best and newest computers, high speed and high powered, while some of the classrooms are still stocked with DOS models.

Reply to
Karen C in California

I didn't mean to provoke you - money is a huge part of the equation. But money won't fix the problem by itself. I think we need a major evolution in what is taught, who teaches and how it is taught. I'd have no heartburn over paying a good teacher, with mastery of his/her subject a real world salary (BTW - lots of teachers in this town make over 50K per school year and have a decent health plan). Teaching needs to be respected again. And I really don't think it is going to be with out some major changes on the part of the profession and society. (maybe Disney needs to stop portraying them as morons; DH and I are considering blocking shows that have weak parenting or clueless teachers)

First it's who's becoming a teacher and why. Of the ones DS and DD have had, I'd only say three maybe four of them considered teaching an avocation. Something they'd do for free (in fact one of them tutors for free). A real passion for the subject. Many have been reasonable teachers and actually know about the subject and put some effort into reaching students, but would move on for less hassle (see my final point). The rest consider seem to consider teaching to be a 9 to 3 job with summers off and only grade during their planning period. Or have an aide to grade for them. (DD's teacher doesn't grade anything, but has her aide grade and record them in the computer. DS can wait for 3-4 weeks to have a rough draft of a three paragraph essay returned. I think the worse I ever had to wait was a week for a 6 page paper.)

Second, it's what the teacher has for a background. My personal belief - a math teacher really ought to have majored in math. Not education, not philosophy, not computer science, Math. And have a credible GPA (like a 3.0) in the major subject. If you have the knowledge solidly under your belt, it is easier to pass it on to some one else. I wouldn't try and teacher your subject and I'd bet you won't attempt to teach physics. But, by the rules that currently exist, I could get my master in education and teach history in this state, because I have enough credits.

And, there has got to be a way rid of teachers that can't teach/don't teach after they get tenure.

Third - there ought to be a penalty for dumb decisions and wasting money - on all fronts.

Stop the stupid testing - a reader doesn't need to be tested quarterly on "phonics awareness". Or testing everyone on basic math to identify the one with the problem. A good teacher will already know that Jimmy doesn't understand what numbers are well enough to add.

Or my current personal favorite - switching horses in mid stream. Six years ago, $10K was spent to research changing the reading program used by all elementary school teachers to teach reading and writing skills. This was done to boost test scores and "better serve the students". Two years ago, test scores hadn't risen "enough" (I think they actually went down for some grades), so another $20K was used to research a new program. Which, instead of starting with the first graders, they started the entire elementary school population on it. So, there are lots of confused kids and parents wondering why their kids are being tested on course work they'd never seen before. [BTW, I think this new program is wonderful and I wish DD had the first three years under her belt.]

Finally, we are asking way too much of teachers that has little or nothing to do with teaching.

Every teacher, especially in the elementary schools, (at least in this town) has at least one 'coded' student and often more (four students leave for reading in DD's 4th grade class; math classes are tiered by "ability"). That means the teacher has to write reports on these kids on at least a monthly basis regarding that coded student's progress. And over the terms, attend multiple meeting about that student - with and with out the parents present. That can absorb a lot of hours. Oh, and there are more reports written by the special instructors these kids see and every thing is typed up by a secretary and reviewed by the Head of Special Services of the school and the superintendent of Special Services. BTW, the last two never see a single student unless it's to pass them in the hallway and their salaries are in excess of $60K a year. (just grabbed the new town budget at the library)

And it can get more interesting - DD had a kid in her class she was afraid of. Can you honestly imagine DD AFRAID of some one smaller than her? He had "anger management issues due to low self esteem and impaired IQ" (direct quote from her teacher. I had a meeting after she told me she was afraid of him). He hit, bit and kicked his full time aide, a student or the teacher daily. But this went on, on a daily basis for 4-5 months. And concerned parents were told that removing him from the classroom would violate "his rights". Only after he drew blood was he gone and I suspect only because the kid's parents brought their lawyer in to the school. Four adults in the room and they still couldn't control that kid.

And teachers get to play social worker too - why didn't you notice John had a black eye 6 times this year? Why didn't you report that Jeff hadn't been bathing? And why didn't you report that Jane went from outgoing to fearful? (all cases were the police later got involved and teacher was questioned about changes in the student - I get an earful from a friend that just retired from teaching here.)

And they're supposed to teach "off subject" things as well. Units on bullying, healthy eating, drug awareness, diversity awareness, fire safety, stranger awareness in the elementary and middle school levels. Or "health" - covers everything from sex, drugs and first aid and is taught by who ever has a free period at the middle or high school....

Sorry dear, money would help. But without curing the real issues, it would be a waste. Teachers need respect to effective, they need to know their subjects and the stupid stuff has to go away. Some of that requires no cash outlay.

Cheryl

Reply to
Cheryl Isaak

Dr. Brat wrote: (speaking about teaching the teachers)

OK -- better sit down Brat -- we're about to make history!!! WE AGREE :-))). Being an educator -- at ANY level -- it totally undervalued in our society and we are much the worse for that stupid, short sighted, head in the san viewpoint! Along with nurses, policemen and firemen, teachers are ridiculously underpaid AND undervalued. When we still lived in Lizard Land, DH and I could NOT believe all the bovine scat that the "Lizards" used to spew each year when it came time to pay school taxes. It is the responsibility of ALL citizens to pay school taxes regardless of whether or not you have kids in school. I was about to wax poetic about the disgusting trend to cut the fine arts programs for the "physical arts" programs but THAT is a REAL can of worms -- LOL! I'll quit by getting up on the soapbox with VOUS and screaming to the world that teachers are undervalued and underpaid and as a result they end up being almost undereducated! CiaoMeow >^;;^<

PAX, Tia Mary >^;;^< (RCTQ Queen of Kitties) Angels can't show their wings on earth but nothing was ever said about their whiskers! Visit my Photo albums at

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Reply to
Tia Mary

I wish it weren't true, but I do agree that money is the bottom line. Florida ranks second to the bottom (out of all 50 states) on what it spends for education per child. Really good teachers are few and far between and the better ones usually leave and go somewhere where they can make a decent living and be better appreciated.

There are some good teachers but they are often retired men and women from up North who are bored and looking for something to keep busy with. In some cases they don't have a degree in education and in some instances don't have a college degree at all. A friend of mine who taught in our local high school would come home with stories about young teachers who had no idea how to correct the grammar in a paper, or do the advanced math, but they were teaching classes.

One would hope that even if the kids are allowed to use a computer and calculator for all of their work, at least the teacher could add two numbers together on paper.

It's a very sad situation here and the drop out rate is extreme. When they do teach at all, it seems to me that most of the effort is how to pass the F-Cat tests. You don't have to know what the material is about as long as you pass.

They even went so far as to import teachers from India to teach in the high schools. The kids claim they can't understand what they're saying and that those classes are a waste of time. I'm afraid I believe the kids.

Something has to be done to change this system. I don't know what, but I think money would definitely play a major role in curing the problem.

One way they could do it would be to have a couple of months for campaigning and another couple of months for actually running for office and stop spending millions on who should run the country. I think it would be a lot better if they would prepare someone for the future.

Lucille

Reply to
Lucille

On Apr 3, 3:14 pm, Cheryl Isaak wrote: m7anZ2dnUVZ_oqhnZ2d@sasktel,

Given that 48K was the median salary in this area 5 years ago, 50K isn't that much. I make a little more than that, but I don't have to live on just my salary. Could you run your household on that?

Professions that are respected tend to be the ones that command good salaries.

For that kind of money and respect, I would work those hours too. Actually, my tenant comes home at three and typcially goes out to another job in the evening.

But you wouldn't, because you could make more money doing something else. And that math major you're talking about could and does make more money doing something else, which is why they're not teaching.

Well, yes, but if you paid people enough, you wouldn't need perks like tenure, would you.

Yeah, but there you're talking administrators and legislators, not teachers.

Right, but this is the state's attempt to fix the problem without paying teachers what they're worth.

Yep, because we don't want to pay other people to do those tasks.

Which is why teachers who could have done a good job in the classroom move into those positions.

Hiring more staff to cover these topics would take care of that but more staff costs more.

I don't think it requires much other than cash outlay. In order to attract people who know their stuff, you need to pay them more. In what other profession are people REQUIRED to have a master's degree and paid so little? Make grants available so that students can attend school, double major, learn their stuff, and not have their options limited by outrageous debt when they graduate. Pay teachers decent salaries so that they don't have to moonlight in the evenings. Don't demand that they coach as well as teach. Hire enough staff to deal with the incidentals (everthing from health class to special needs students). All of that requires more money. Just look at the differences between wealthy districts and poor ones. Money buys a better education in almost every way.

Elizabeth

Reply to
epc123

om,

e quoted text -

I wish it weren't true, but I do believe that here in Florida money is at least part of the answer. Florida ranks second to the bottom (out of all 50 states) on what it spends for education per child. Really good teachers are few and far between and the better ones usually leave and go somewhere where they can make a decent living and be better appreciated.

There are some good teachers but they are often retired men and women from up North who are bored and looking for something to keep busy with. In some cases teachers don't have a degree in education and in some instances don't have a college degree at all. A friend of mine who taught in our local high school would come home with stories about young teachers who had no idea how to correct the grammar in a paper, or do the advanced math, but they were teaching classes.

One would hope that even if the kids are allowed to use a computer and calculator for all of their work, at least the teacher could add two numbers together on paper.

It's a very sad situation and the drop out rate is extreme. When they do teach at all, it seems to me that most of the effort is how to pass the F-Cat tests. You don't have to know what the material is about as long as you pass.

They even went so far as to import teachers from India to teach in the high schools. The kids claim they can't understand what they're saying and that those classes are a waste of time. I'm afraid I believe the kids.

Something has to be done to change this system. I don't know what, but I think money would definitely play a major role in curing the problem.

One way they could do it would be to have a couple of months for campaigning and another couple of months for actually running for office and stop spending millions on who should run the country. I think it would be a lot better if they would focus on preparing someone for the future.

Lucille

I'm sending this via google

Reply to
Lucille

Sorry for the almost duplicate messages. My newsgroups were down so I finally resorted to sending my note via google. Wouldn't you know that the moment I hit send on google, Comcast came back up and sent my original not quite done reply.

I wish it weren't true, but I do believe that here in Florida money is at least part of the answer. Florida ranks second to the bottom (out of all 50 states) on what it spends for education per child. Really good teachers are few and far between and the better ones usually leave and go somewhere where they can make a decent living and be better appreciated.

There are some good teachers but they are often retired men and women from up North who are bored and looking for something to keep busy with. In some cases teachers don't have a degree in education and in some instances don't have a college degree at all. A friend of mine who taught in our local high school would come home with stories about young teachers who had no idea how to correct the grammar in a paper, or do the advanced math, but they were teaching classes.

One would hope that even if the kids are allowed to use a computer and calculator for all of their work, at least the teacher could add two numbers together on paper.

It's a very sad situation and the drop out rate is extreme. When they do teach at all, it seems to me that most of the effort is how to pass the F-Cat tests. You don't have to know what the material is about as long as you pass.

They even went so far as to import teachers from India to teach in the high schools. The kids claim they can't understand what they're saying and that those classes are a waste of time. I'm afraid I believe the kids.

Something has to be done to change this system. I don't know what, but I think money would definitely play a major role in curing the problem.

One way they could do it would be to have a couple of months for campaigning and another couple of months for actually running for office and stop spending millions on who should run the country. I think it would be a lot better if they would focus on preparing someone for the future.

Lucille

I'm sending this via google

Reply to
Lucille

Eh, we've agreed before. That's part of how our angel got where she is.

Elizabeth

Reply to
Dr. Brat

Librarians in public libraries. Who are often paid less and don't have the possibilities of pay increases with continuing education coursework. And who work nights and weekends and all summer.

Alison MLIS Librarian

Reply to
Alison

Amen to that!!! Kids have to take too many tests that are used to evaluate the system itself, not their progress. These tests are used to determine the amount of funding the school system receive so to make sure that the schools looks good, teachers spend an inordinate time teaching to the tests instead of really teaching.

Reply to
anne

Yet another under appreciated but crucial service.

Elizabeth

Reply to
Dr. Brat

As if anyone could deny you your turn.

There's a lot in your post that deserves thoughtful response, but I just had to pipe up and ask you to separate these. I can't spell to save my life, but I do know that it matters and I try to be prepared ahead of time with big words written down for myself. But my spelling doesn't match my oral vocabulary. It just doesn't and there's not much I can do about it except admit my disability and move on. If students ask me to spell a word I've used, I'll write it up the ways I think are possible and then ask them which is correct. Some things I do have memorized, but often the right version just doesn't look right to my brain. S'what I get for using words like "ameliorate" in class.

Elizabeth

Reply to
Dr. Brat

Can I have a turn too?

I loved Cheryl's post! She raised some important issues that happen here in NSW too. Teachers are required to multitask and fit an ever-increasing list of 'mickey mouse' subjects into an already-bulging curriculum.

However, my beef is that teachers must take all the risks, yet have no authority to minimise that risk! I don't know about elsewhere, but teachers here are severely limited in what they can do to deter poor behaviour, bullying, disrespect and dishonesty. Detention is no more (little dears have a right to visit the toilet, eat their lunches and go home on time). Corporal punishment is viewed as if every teacher's middle name were Torquemada. Even a public dressing-down is now illegal (in NSW) because it might effect the little darlings' self-esteem!

All teachers get verbally abused these days. They're expected to simply suck it up and smile back - there's no redress possible! I know teachers who have had chairs and desks thrown at them. In fact, I know one teacher who is a polio victim and very small and frail. He has been bodily picked up by a student and threated with being thrown out of a second-storey window! I know teachers who have had their cars and houses vandalised. I know others whose kids have been threatened and stalked!

Other comments:

Has anyone noticed there is no ongoing evaluation of teacher adequacy as there is in the private sector? Well, there may be elsewhere, but not here in NSW. Once you get your teacher's licence, you're a teacher and equal to every other holder of a teacher's licence. Your job is sacrosanct and you can be as bad at it as you like. There is *no* mechanism to sack teachers who are incapable of teaching!

The reasons for this are legion, but in my mind, the biggest one is that with increasing tendencies for kids to go on to University, the easiest profession to 'fall' into is teaching. You often hear it in high schools: 'anyone can be a teacher'.

Well, duh! No, they can't!

I know many teachers and here are some examples I've encountered:

- plain old classroom teacher who took himself to Uni and did a Science degree so he could *really* teach kids about Natural History

- same teacher - learned to play guitar and fostered a school choir which, today, wins the local eisteddfod year in and year out.

- part-time teacher who hated doing canteen on her days off because she couldn't make change or add up lunch orders and felt embarrassed!

- teacher who refused to do her turn as annual raffle co-ordinator - likewise, she 'can't add up money' and didn't want the responsibility!

- teachers who can't spell correctly and don't know why spelling matters

- teachers who don't use correct grammar and who use 'street' vernacular in order to be 'liked'

- teachers who utterly cannot gain the respect of a class and who are famed for the riots jokingly called 'lessons'

- teachers who can't tell you where your child sits in his/her class because they don't know (personal favourite of mine)

- teachers who spend their own money on incentives and rewards and materials for great lessons (eg cooking, sewing, science)

- teachers who stay back after school to help kids that need one-on-one attention or extra practice in an area

- teachers who are prepared to call you in advance, letting you know of your child's successes, failures and playground incidents

I could go on and on and on...

But y'know what? I've said it before and I'll say it again: it all boils down to the question 'Why do I send my child to school?'

If you send your child to school to be educated, you'll get some of that. How much depends on the emphasis *you* place on it at home! Kids of parents who don't care about literature, ciphering skills or general knowledge don't generally do that well...

If you send your child to school to be taught 'values', then you'd better be closely allied to the school parents' body. Otherwise, the 'values' taught might differ widely from your own!

If you send your child to school to learn to socialise, then be aware of every single thing that happens to him on the playground: much of it these days is not nice and no one will advocate for your child except you!

If you send your child to school to receive discipline that you can't give, then forget it: *ou* gave birth to it - *you* teach it the difference between right and wrong!

If you send your child to school because the law says you must, then join the party! After nearly fifty years as a student and teacher, I've come to the realisation that schools are horrendous places and not fit for human habitation! They take kids away from the major influence and model in their lives (you) and subject them to an absolutely artificial environment where the population, stress and peer pressure do not remotely resemble any other place the child will ever be again. They place many kids in jeopardy from older, larger and more aggressive peers. They place other kids in positions of power where they learn how to manipulate and bully. They give adults nervous and immune system disorders and, these days, they even have a death-rate!

I know reading this might sound far-fetched, but neither of my kids has had the wonderful experience of school that I did and I truly believe there is something highly unnatural, nasty and downright threatening about educational 'institutions' these days. I believe the reason for that is that none of us is clear about what we expect from our schools and the schools are busily disappearing up their own fundaments in trying to be all things to all people.

Sorry about the length. Like Cheryl, I feel very passionately about all this and have seen too many school-based tragedies take place to think otherwise than I do.

Reply to
Trish Brown

Exactly!!! And that's my point! You recognise that you are a weak speller and I'm quite sure you know the benefit of a spelling checker. Would you send out a publication, no matter how humble, without having someone (or somebot) check its spelling? Of course not!

Spelling is a funny thing, isn't it? I mean, some are good at it and others not. I suppose if it were possible to influence spellability early in childhood, we wouldn't see half the creative spellings we do. I'm an excellent speller (no biggie - just a feature of my ridiculous memory) and so is my daughter. My son spells well, but not impeccably like the younger kid. My husband spells well, but again, not perfectly. My sister spells well but none of her kids could spell to save their lives.

I've observed similar oddness with numerical operations. Some people 'get' it and others don't. And those who 'get' it generally do so early in life while those who don't never do quite 'get' it! Why, I wonder? DH and I were both pretty good at Maths, but DD is just a good average and struggles in some areas. DS can just manage add-ups and take-aways and that's about his limit! Why, I wonder?

Another phenomenon I've noticed is that some families seem to foster excellence in some areas so that skills appear to 'run' in family lines. Sport, for example, or musical skill can be seen in various generations of the same families. I suppose the old Nature/Nurture debate will go on and on ad infinitum, but it's still fascinating nonetheless. Do we pass on our skills to our kids in our genes or in our attitude to education or just in our expectation that certain standards will be met? I wonder...

Reply to
Trish Brown

One of the finest profs I had was dyslexic---when I was her TA, we had a signal, because if she was distracted, say, by answering a sutdent question, she would not be able to finish a word on the board. She had a Ph. D. and was an excellent scholar---just couldn't spell. Dawne

Reply to
Dawne Peterson

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