Yet MORE Chart Preference Questions

I would want the main chart single sided--instructions or stitch diagrams or whatnot could be on the back, but I'd want to be able to lay neighboring pages together without having to go make a photocopy.

All in one place, so it's not a royal pain to go shopping. However, depending on the design, it might also be helpful to have another listing by section.

Best wishes, Ericka

In answer to 2, that is exactly what I mean. Not many patterns have numbered axes, so few people realize how useful they can be. If one of your customers happens to have a query about one or more specific stitches, and they know how to use numbered axes, they can be very useful indeed. As you have patterns on several pages, they are another way of ensuring that the pages are lined up correctly. In answer to 6, we routinely see messages relating to how much floss it takes to complete a project; e.g. people running out of floss before the project if finished. If you give a symbol count, this is factual, so no-one can complain about it. If you know how to use a symbol count, you can get a first approximation as to how much floss you will need. Since to date very few patterns have a symbol count, not many people know how to use one. I just hope that the more symbol counts there are, the more people will realize that they can be very useful indeed.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

Ah, I see. A SYMBOL count, not just a stitch count. Got it.

Thanks!

Thank you. I'm going to assume your preference is the majority, since that question on one big sheet versus many 8.5 x 11 was running 62-1 too! LOL

Done.

Single sided for the main chart, details on backs is fine!

A full shopping list on the back page for easy shopping when you buy the chart and a symbols and materials list on each page.

Hurrah! I'm less vocal than Jim about that, but I do love a numbered chart!

Cheryl

Great!

Single-sided for reasons already given. Another annoyance with double-sided charts are those on really flimsy paper so you can see a shadow through from the other side. That gets confusing.

One list for me. If I have to enlarge the chart sections on working copies, the legend gets cut off each page anyway.

Good. I agree with Jim on the helpfulness of this.

Yay!

Sounds good. Get rid of the word "about" since marking the center of each page is usually worse than useless. :-)

Also good.

This can be useful but I think it is more important to directly mention if multiple skeins of any color are needed to stitch the chart on the recommended fabric. The symbol counts would be more important for someone who wants to stitch the chart on a different count than recommended.

Surely, this is the whole point, and goes to the heart of the matter. A symbol count works no matter how the stitcher decides to do the work. Only if the recommended fabric is used can a designer give any idea as to how many skeins of floss are required. And this is dicey, as some people are profligate with their use of floss. The designer may well have data on how much floss was used during model stitching, but how does this compare with the way other stitchers use their floss? Is the model stitcher parsimoneous or profligate when compared with other stitchers? I suggest the designer has no idea of the answers to these questions. And if they do suggest how much floss to buy, and the customer finds this advice to be wrong, then this is negative publicity. Far better not to indulge in guessing, but give a factual symbol count. It also does *not* address the problem of deciding whether one has enough of a part skein of a particular color. Personally, the first thing I do when I am kitting a new project, is to go to my stash and find all the colors I have which the pattern requires. The question then is, do I have enough of any or all of these colors? Clearly a symbol count can provide a good deal of information, and I can decide whether I need to go out and purchase more floss of the colors I have, and how many skeins of the colors I do not have.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

I often line my single-sheet charts up side-by-side when transitioning from one page to another, so double-sided would only work if no adjoining parts are on opposite sides of the same piece of paper. When a major design element occurs at Four Corners, I'll even put all four pages on the copier to get all of that part on the same piece of paper, so not just not placing Row 1, Page 1 on the reverse of either Row 1, Page 2, or Row 2, Page 1, but also not R1P1 on the back of R2P2, which adjoins at the corner.

To put it briefly, symbol counts would be useful to you and to me and to certain others who are both swift with numbers as well as aware of how much floss is used during stitching. There are many people who, even if they knew how many stitches they could get from one skein, could not calculate the required number of skeins on the spot in a store.

In more length, providing this information is dicey if it overloads or confuses the buyer. Example: Symbol DMC Color #skeins #symbols # 600 V Dk Cranberry 1 3 ^ 601 Dk Cranberry 3 3,500

Be honest, many stitchers (especially novice stitchers) would get confused and accidentally buy 3 skeins of DMC 600 and then get mad when only three stitches use that color. The anger would be multiplied if the chart called for expensive silks or overdyes instead of DMC. (Note: The numbers are completely made up and bear no relationship to any person's actual stitching.)

The other problem that creeps up is a symbol count does not account for backstitching or any other use ("specialty" stitches) of a specific color in a chart. If the chart is all full cross stitches (or has only extremely minimal backstitching), the counts will be meaningful.

I can do a decent guess at amounts needed if and only if the chart calls for ordinary cotton floss. Since I use much shorter working lengths for silks, rayons, and metallics and those products also are packaged in different lengths, I would much rather have the designer tell how much was required to stitch the model or provide an optional kit with the required lengths (and a little extra) of specialty fibers. The latter is really handy for small shops that don't have space to carry full lines of every fiber.

So essentially I agree that the symbol count does have some use, but I believe it should be the last number provided for each item > Brenda Lewis ( snipped-for-privacy@netscape.net) writes:

Well, how about this:

it's not even close to being complete. All suggestions welcome.

We agree, almost completely. I have long been an advocate of symbol counts being put on web sites; possibly with an explanation of how they might be used. All of which would, IMHO, be a waste of precious space on a pattern. Where we disagree is whether designers should stick their necks out, and recommend how much floss their customers need to purchase. If I were a designer, I would *never* attempt to do this; I believe it is far too dangerous. However, clearly this is a decision for designers to make.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

For DMC or other really common fibers I don't care too much. It is only a minor annoyance to go pick up another skein of something which is locally available. If I have to special order something or the fiber is hand-dyed where dye lot makes a huge difference, I would want to know that multiple units need to be purchased so I could buy them all at once. That said, there are some people who cannot even get DMC conveniently.

As long as the chart states the usage given is an estimate--individual stitching technique, fabric substitution, and alterations to the chart (such as personalization) being factors in actual usage--the designer is doing a service. I would complain more if the design clearly required multiple skeins and the chart didn't mention it than if the chart estimated two skeins and I finished it with only one skein (with maybe

1" to spare). Now if the chart said two ske> Where we disagree is whether designers should stick their necks out,

I like it. Very clear (GOOD font choice!!). I also recommend actual bead count for each color. Some of us have lots of partial packages in stash!

I especially like the > Well, how about this:

Well, then put it in words, rather than chart form DMC 600 3 stitches (1 skein) DMC 601 3500 stitches (3 skeins)

BTDT. The only time I could get to LNS was Saturday

Went to the site and took a good look at the table. The first five symbols used "solid" colors; i.e. the two strands in the needle are the same color. The next 4 were "blended" colors; i.e. the two strands in the needle are different colors. It would be interesting to know what you intend to put in the column for recommending how many skeins for the blended colors. The symbol count is, however, completely straightforward. One can calculate floss requirements for each color separately, assuming half a stitch each. I have used this method, and it works just fine.

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

I think I have finally figured out where you and I differ, Brenda. We are looking at the same problem from two completely different points of view. You are looking from the viewpoint of the customer; I am looking at it as a designer. Certainly it would be wonderful if designers could satisfy

*all* their customers by giving them information as to how much floss they need to purchase. And I can appreciate customers pressing designers for this type of information; stitchers seem to want to be spoon-fed on this issue; simple arithmetic is something that must be avoided at all cost. Unfortunately for this approach, we live in a real world, where uncertainties abound. I contend it is absolutely impossible at this time, for a designer to satisfy *all* their customers on this issue. If a designer attempts to give a single figure as to how much floss should be purchased, they *guarantee* that some of their customers will be dissattisfied; which no one in business ever wants to do. If someone can demonstrate to me how a designer can satisfy *all* their customers with advice on floss purchase, I would be more than happy. It would mean that the problem of how much floss one needs to get *before* you start stitching, has been solved. I believe this problem *can* be solved, but a solution is many, many, years away; if ever (sigh!!!).

-- Jim Cripwell. From Canada. Land of the Key Bird. This creature of doom flies over the frozen tundra in winter, shrieking its dreaded call; "Key, Key, Key, Key rist but it's cold!!"

I don't, because I looked at it from the point of view of an extremely ADD shopper (aka me). I need to know definitively how much of each component I need. Muddying the waters with how much I need of something that USES one of the components is something that would frustrate me.

I'm also stitching the model, so I will know how much *I* need to complete the project (the recommendations are what Pattern Maker gave me, and I'm not taking that as gospel), and I will change the recommendations as I see fit.

Now, we've proven that I am in the minority in my thinking on a couple of key issues, so I'm not even going to begin to speak for other stitchers. I, however, would not be benefitted by a stitch count because I wouldn't know how to translate that into skeins needed. I can provide those like me with a recommended shopping list (because that's what I'm creating) *and* and I can provide those like you with a more objective criterion. The folks who care about one will ignore the other.

I actually *am* trying to please all people all the time with how I chart and write instructions, even if I don't feel like re-inventing the wheel (i.e., using other peoples' instructions and referencing them properly).

I was just a bit confused by your instructions of how you do couching: "My own technique for couching is to "tack" down the laid thread as **indiscreetly** as possible." Should that be 'discreetly', and in not to be obvious?

Carey (Tried to email you directly with this, but I don't think it got through. Going back to Lurkdom now.)