OT - Frustrated Mom needs some advice! (Kinda Long)

First of, please know that I am speaking from frustration here, so please excuse my tones & ramblings. I don't really have anyone here I can discuss this with. I'm hoping some of the more experienced moms out there can provide me with some clues.

Some of you might remember that I lost my younger sis 4+ years ago to AML. We (DH, twin sons & I) are raising her youngest daughter, who is just 6 1/2. She has been with us since she was 20 months old, about 2 weeks before my sister passed. Her time with my sis was sporatic at best, since sis was in and out of the hospital, working, (partying), etc. (Sis would not even admit that she was expecting to her other children and the extended family did not find out about the baby until sis got sick.) I know that the baby spent a lot of her time, from 14mos to 20mos, bouncing around with various caregivers, some questionable, before my sis asked/allowed me to step in. She had several health problems when she came to us, mostly diet related, since most sitters chose to shove a bottle in her mouth instead of actually trying to care for her. Her diet consisted of milk (ba-ba's) and she would eat broccoli & tomatoes. Anyway, that's a whole other story. We have worked really hard to correct earlier problems, are helping her catch up to age level reading, school work, etc. She is actually quite bright and is starting to learn very well in school. She eats like a champ now, for the most part, but there are still some textural issues. She is physically doing just fine, healthy, active, etc. (We refer to her as the "Fearless Flyer" because she will try any physical task without hesitation. The two wheeler was a piece of cake for her once she decided.)

The real problem I am having is with her behavior. I swear, if given a choice, this child makes the worst one. It's as if she has no concept of the truth or being honest, or doing the right thing. She is lying, sneaking, stealing, it seems at every turn. We can't go more than a few days without catching her doing something pretty bad. She will lie to me about the most ridiculous things, like if she had breakfast or not. One morning, she told me she didn't need to eat before school because she had gotten up while we were all asleep, eaten breakfast, and gone back to bed! Her story was quite detailed, elaborate and completely false?! Today, she stashed a little summer skirt in her backpack and put it on at school - we still have piles of snow on the ground here and she was sick last week! Last year (at 5), I had to open her coat many times to make sure she was wearing warm enough clothes because she tried to leave the house in strappy t-shirts in freezing weather! I can't imagine a 6 yo trying to wear "belly shirts" to school either - we had a talk about that also, right before the "too smalls" went into the giveaway box! At one point, we found out that she had been "raiding" all of our rooms and personal belongings, stashing our stuff (including one of the phones!) in her room. She took items like the digital camera wallet & flash disks, misc small things from the boys, money from DH, the list was amazing! She was given one day to give everything back and we kept finding little piles outside of her door. (This was six months ago, at

6 yo!) I don't even know when this stuff was taken because I'm a SAHM and she is quite well supervised, or so I thought. (She is having a hard time getting up for school lately and we're beginning to wonder if she is getting up at night and wandering the house! DH & I have even discussed putting a video camera in her room!) When we go into a store, I sometimes see her looking at things in her reach, and then looking around to see who is watching. I take her hand and lead her away before she gets into anything, but I'm sure that she would steal things if given the opportunity. Oh, the list could go on. I feel sick most times with the level of distrust I am developing for her, but the level of her behavior just doesn't seem to improve.

I tried having her (and I) talk with a counselor last spring, without much progress. This counselor dealt mostly with children's grief and loss issues. We thought maybe she was having issues about losing her mom, because she was sort of focusing on that. Well, the Dr. had her talk a bit and draw some pics (which were about happy family stuff), and she considered her to be just fine. Doc said that there were some definite attachment issues, since her mom was basically absentee between working and then getting sick. Other than that, she was supposed to be "adapting" just fine. To the outside world, she is sweet and cute and adorable, but behind closed doors, I'm getting very concerned, to say the least! She simply seems to have No Conscience, which frightens me. If she is this bad at 6, what in the world is 16 going to be like, or 13 for that matter! When I talk with her about her behavior, she looks at me like I'm speaking a foreign language! She does feel the fear of getting caught, but she is not putting that together with the idea that it means that the choice is wrong. We talk frequently about listening to her inner voice, that it's trying to tell her that her choices are not right, but she is not putting them together. Is it too young for her to have a conscience? My boys never had these types of behaviors! Sure, they lied once in a while, but they learned their lessons. We, as a family, value honesty very highly. I can't imagine chosing to lie so often about so little.

I'm at a loss. On one hand, I made a promise to my dying sister, but on the other hand, I worry about the long term effects this is/will have on my own family. My sons don't understand why she acts the way she does and it causes tons of friction. There is just so much fighting and teasing, some of which is normal, but add the lying/sneaking/stealing/lack of trust and we turn a different corner. There are other family members that she could grow up with, but the best family situation, environment, supervision, examples, and guidance, are here, with us.

I would appreciate any advice that some of you could provide. I'm thinking of seeking another counselor for her, but don't know what kind to seek. I know that my sis had a real problem with reality and truthfulness and it made her short life (and that of her older children) Very Hard! I don't want to see the same for this child, but the roads are heading in that direction. Is this behavior a window into what is to come, or is it something she will grow out of? Are there things I can be doing to lead her in a more positive direction? Are there programs for children like this that can turn them around, or turn on a conscience?

TIA friends of the frame

Reply to
TwinMom
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My heart goes out to you. Please keep looking for counseling for her....and for your whole family. My first (unprofessional) impression is that she exhibits sociopathic behavior. No conscience. I'm sure there are others in the newsgroup who have had training in this area. You've done a great thing taking her in. I'm so sorry it's so hard. KJ

Reply to
KJ

So sorry you are having so many problems. Please do look for another counselor. All of you need help as a family unit.

Reply to
maryd

Goodness, my heart goes out to you. My DIL has a friend with a foster car child they've had since she was 6 (now 16) and exhibits the same symptoms - no conscience. I have no advice....I wish I did. I know it's really frightening for them, and they have no family life to speak of. Last I knew (about a year ago) they were thinking of giving her up (putting her back into foster care) because it had gotten so bad.

I wonder, did you sister exhibit any of these symptoms?=20

-Irene

Reply to
IMS

First of all - (((((((((((((((hugs)))))))))) to you. You are doing the right thing.

Now! I see a lot of the same behaviour in some of the kids at school and having talked greatly with our guidance counsellor, I believe it is an internal issue for your niece. Whilst she recognises that you guys are her family now, and she has in all probability, dealt with the loss of her mum, subconsciously (sp?) she probably fears being rejected/abandoned/orphaned again.

The taking things is just her way of gaining attention so that you have to deal with her - she thinks "if I take stuff and they have to talk to / punish me then I'm still here and they are still here". Also I feel she will be accumulating "stuff" (doesn't matter what it is) so that she is not alone - she has things.

All kids try to get out wearing innappropriate clothes (I have 2 DDs who like to do that).

Whatever you do don't give up on her and shuttle her off - you guys are her "constant", her stability. Explain to your own kids that niece is going through a rough patch and is doing some inappropriate things but that she needs their help. Make them part of the solution so that they know the situation - don't keep them in the dark ad don't make excuses for her either.

Perhaps, sit down with her and explain that it's not right to take things that aren't hers. Say you've noticed her doing it and it's not the done thing and is there anything you both can do to work it out, or does she need certain things. For instance "I notce you took the digi-cam bag. That one belongs to me but if you want to have a camera for yourself you can earn one through pocket money". Give her something to work towards.

Good luck - it'll be a long road, but with any luck you'll make it.

Reply to
Sharon Harper

From what you write, this young girl sounds like a survivor. No one respected her boundaries and so now she does not have any boundaries, respect for others. I would look for a therapist who deals with childhood abuse in young children. People "stole" from her and so now she is stealing in an effort to "take back" that which was taken from her. You, too, should seek counseling so that her, yours and other family members can all work together and learn to work as a unit filled with love and understanding. While I understand your frustration, having her move out of your home into wherever will only make her life that much worse.

DEM

Reply to
Donna

Could be reactive attachment disorder -- you really need to seek help from a child psychiatrist or psychologist.

Reply to
elspeth

Would like to hear what others have to say. I replied privately because it was just too long, and personal. Thanx Joanna remove quilt to reply

Reply to
Joanna

OMG, Elizabeth! I'm in a sort of shell shock here. I didn't realize what a big deal this disorder really is. I did a little digging into RAD and found a support website. There are 16 telltale symptoms listed, odd, bizarre things, and my little girl exhibits 12 of the 16! It's starting to make sense now. I will pursue this avenue further. Kinda scary, but at least I see a direction to follow. Thank you for opening my eyes!

Reply to
TwinMom

Replied privately

Ginger in CA

Reply to
Ginger in CA

I would not say sociopathic as that is one who is the badest of bad now this is odd... but the sociopaths are the psychos, and the psychopaths are the guys like Leonardo DiCap`rio in Catch me if you can.... Directly from my class I just took yesterday lol. Anyhow, as one who works in psychiatry, for young kids that could be odd (oppositionally defiant disorder) it can move on the conduct disorder when they reach teen years... but if you look up ODD you will find ways of treating it., There is stuff that can be done. Also, look for a new councellor, someone from Mental health, not psychology. My son wen through a local mental health center and the change in him is ncredible. He was given the tools he needed to function in life. He is now in Grade five, near the top of his clas, and his teacher constanly tells me how he is wonderful (versus all the other years of complains about the poor guy) Anyhow, my point is some councellors are very useful, some are not so useful. I work with a guy from Child and Youth mental health, and we car pool together, I can pick his brain on friday (the next car pool day) and see what he thinks as I am adult orientated for expereience, except for two practicum with troubled youth (hence the happy conduct disorder knowledge)

Carissa

Reply to
Carissa

Just looked up Rad.org at: >

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Wow is all I can say. Joanna

Reply to
Joanna

Oh! That's opposite of the way I've always understood it to be. I'll have to re-check that! I knew this group would have some good info. I should have sat back and waited for the pros to answer her. But I just felt so touched by her situation. KJ

Reply to
KJ

You are already getting some help from the group by the looks of it. I just wanted to say way to go in taking this child in, and don't give up on her. I'll keep you in my thoughts and prayers as you work to figure this out. Hang in there!!! Big hugs!!

Reply to
Charlotte Hippen

Hello, dear. I'm sorry for all you are going thru and the problems she is having. I have no answers. The only thing I might be able to add is if this might be related to her mother, there is only way that I think that could have happened. If she's been with you since she was 20 months old she should not be remembering the trauma of poor care.... unless... is it possible that there has been lots of discussions about her mom and her being passed around so much with people who didn't care for her and that has left her with feelings of abandoment? Words remember what time should have forgotten. Just a thought, maybe you never have talked about it in front of her, and she is just like this. Just wanted to mention it incase it could shed some light.

Reply to
cozyhomelife

You have goten lots of good stuff from everybody so far. I'm just going to the echo the advice of get a serious long term counselor of some variety. One that talks to both you and her. And I am going to tell you not to let everybody focus on the first 20 months of her life forever. I am sure there are issues there, but constantly attributing everything to those few months does no one any good. Knowing about them can help, but she is here and now not then. Taking them as a begining is one thing, but everyone saying "Oh poor thing" and just making a mark against those few months until she is old enough that they start blaming her instead of her past would be terrible. I have seen kids who had counselors that did just that, as if acknowledging the past would automaticly make everything OK in the present and future. She may have a problem that is actually unrelated to her enviroment, past or present. Do not let anyone helping her overlook things just because her infancy was far from optimal. It has been more than 4 years and she has spent over 2/3s of her life with you and almost all of her socialization process has been with you. She once had a different mother, and that person is gone. You are her mother now. Focusing on the time when you were not would be a bad thing IMHO. YMMV

NightMist

On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 02:03:55 GMT, "TwinMom" wrote:

Reply to
NightMist

Thanks dear. I totally get what you are saying! Actually, I HAVE been trying to manage with the "don't look back" theory for most of our time together. I don't see any good in living in the past and, for the most part, it is not something we think about. I suppose it has finally dawned on me that no matter how much I try, my own methods are just not cutting it with this child. I do see some minor improvements here and there, but the overall trend is downward and quite frightening. I think that until someone has actually lived with a child like this, it's simply hard to imagine. I know that there are some kids from foreign adoptions who have problems that are so severe and irreversible that it's heartbreaking. I've been reading some of the ongoing stories from some of the RAD families and I'm thankful we are not at that level. However, things are surfacing now that are just out of the blue and are out of the range of "normal". She is exhibiting 3/4 of the telltale signs of early attachment damage. This is beyond simply a difficult personality. Barring any chemical or neurological problems, we simply must take a look at the effects her early years MAY have had on her.

You'd have to know me to understand how important it is to me to raise "good adults". We focus on personal responsibility, honesty, self sufficiency, care for others and making the right choices. I won't be here forever to guide these guys, so I want them to have the best tools I can give them at any given moment. Unfortunately, my DS lost that track somewhere along the way. When this babe came to us, she was almost exclusively bottle fed because no one wanted to take the time to get her to actually eat. My pediatrician said something about babes only being in control of what goes into and what comes out of their bodies - we had both problems. I do know that for at least her last 6 months she was bounced from sitter to sitter to sitter while DS was in and out of the hospital and/or recovering from chemo. She was a "traveller" with only a diaper bag, bottles and a few clothing items. Before DS got sick, the baby was cared for by many others, including older sibs, sometimes over weekends while DS was "out". Also, older sibs blamed DS's illness on the babe and the teens were quite mean to her in my presense and in front of DS, I can't imagine what they did when I was not there. I'll never forget the look on her little face when I went to pick her up to bring her to our home. First off, I stopped by her home and loaded my car with all her "world" - toys, clothes, lovies, blankies, etc. (All that was left for her originally had been a car seat and a few minor items, including a bag of sepositories and laxatives.) When I got to the caregiver and told her it was time to go, she looked at me as if to say "Oh, here we go again." - quite sad and a little confused (after all, like a lot of the other "sitters", she didn't really know me very well). Then, when we got to my car and she saw her "stuff" inside, she got all excited - then it was "Oh, Let's Go!!!" She was doing quite well for the first two weeks! Then her other 1/2 bro (9 at the time) briefly came to our home after 2 weeks of her being there alone, she took one look at him and started screaming and crying. (I can't imagine a baby having that much fear of a sibling!) She became angry and hostile, spitting food, refusing to eat (again) - oh it was something! He turned out to be too much of a threat to her and my own sons and had to be sent to his Grampa within a few weeks.

There are, of course, many more details to this story, but the bottom line is that her first almost two years were traumatic and in constant transition. I did try to ignore that stuff and simply provide all the love and discipline I could muster. It's working in little bits and starts, but I think it's time to consider other options and maybe revisit damage that her early years could have inflicted. There are definite trust issues and the lack of conscience, at least right now, is very worrisome. That's not to say that it would be an excuse by any means, but I definitely need help here. There is something "unusual" going on with this child and, for the sake of her future, I need to be more proactive on her behalf.

Now, pass those cookies! :-)

Reply to
TwinMom

Reply to
Taria

Others with better knowledge have replied, but I will pray for a suitable solution. Please don't give up!!

Reply to
TerriLee in WA (state)

Several of the things you mentioned sound a lot like my daughter. Among my DDs diagnoses is Sensorty Integration Disorder.....I would suggest that you take your niece to a very good pediatric occupational therapist for an evaluation for possible sensory issues. Also, perhaps a bi-polar issue? (Bipolar manifests differently in children than adults). If her evaluation shows SID problems, occupational therapy can be a lifesaver for her and for your sanity. Believe me, I know personally.

Good Luck, Tracey in CT

Reply to
Tracey

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