OT just thought I'd continue to update

I am SO unqualified to offer advice on depression, Anne, and mostly I don't. However . . . forgive your parents? Sure. Go ahead. Again and again. Many of us could curdle your gourd with tales of abusive and neglectful parents. Probably none of ours have been serial killers but they mostly fell short of perfect or even supportive. No mother-in-law joke could hold a candle to the crap I suffered with mine. If she's any help at all, entertaining the little ones while you do chores, my goodness . . . that's something. Mine wanted to do 'full makeup and pearls' while I entertained her along with tending a newborn. I'm so glad to hear that you are holding on, seeking answers, letting go of stuff that doesn't matter or you can't control. But . . . forgive? Yes. You can do that. Holding you close in our prayers, Polly

Thank you for the update, Anne! It sounds like post-partum depression may be compounded by some general depression? The work you are doing, working through your feelings, is very important. There will be many who have hurt you in the past -- some intentionally, some unintentionally. I think it is more important to your recovery to forgive them, rather than attempt to talk out those hurts with the one who hurt you (and very likely has no idea they hurt you, and has probably completely forgotten about the incident that looms so large in your own memory).

To add to what Polly has said below -- forgiveness is something you do

*regardless* of whether or not the people you are forgiving deserve it, or have earned it, or have asked for it, or even realize they need it.

Forgiveness is something *you* do, *for you*.

*You* are the one who has suffered the consequences of stuffing your emotions about them (resentment/anger/whatever) inside where it eats away at you, unseen. Those buried, invisible feelings have (and had) absolutely no effect on them.

In the same way, when you forgive, *you* reap the benefits of that forgiveness -- which is very freeing. It can feel like a weight off your shoulders! A very heavy weight which is no longer your burden.

The lightness of feeling that results can translate directly into your depression lifting, you will begin to feel so much better!

Then you'll only be dealing with the "baby blues" part of it. Unfortunately, I've never dealt with that so can't offer any comforting words. But it seem sto me, that if you are dealing with only the one thing, it should be easier to treat.

You are in our thoughts and prayers.

Dragonfly (Pam)

Just wanted to 'second' Dragonfly's message. Forgiveness is for you, the people whom you forgive may never know how much you've suffered and they may never be aware that you've forgiven them. But, you will, and you will be much more at peace with yourself. Also, depression is not just being down, sad, etc. It is a physical, chemical, un-balance in your body. I hope you know this and that it's nothing you've done or caused. Talk with your doctor. I hope you're feeling better really soon, God bless, Michelle G.

In message , Anne Rogers writes

snipped, as this is the bit I can respond to most easily:

You have reached the first realisation, and that is good. The next

*most important step is to try to understand why. Once you can see that, you will be able to come to some form of forgiveness at least. I don't think you should expect that, if you work really hard on this, you will get to a stage when all is forgotten and all is well between you. You may well find that even thinking of their actions still hurts - every time. However, if you can honestly say that you understand, *you* will feel better. As others have said, harbouring hurt only eats away at you.

Continue working with the professionals - and it is *work: hard and exhausting work. Has anyone suggested Cognitive Behaviour Therapy? It

*might* help, if it is a good fit with what you are going through, and your own way of thinking. If it doesn't help; if anything doesn't help, it is just not the right direction for *you*: nothing wrong with the therapy, not your fault; just the wrong 'fit'.

You will. These things are a bit cyclical. What you are aiming for is gentle sine waves, rather than manic scribble with knots in!

Every little helps. Maybe you could ask her to swap roles for a while, so you can reconnect with the kids. The lack of initialive could be her simply not wanting to tread on your toes, and not knowing how to do things 'your way'. When helping out like this, I tend to ask: Is there any specific way you want this done, or will I just get on with it? And don't treat her as a guest. In my family and circle of friends, it has become the unwritten law that whoever cooks does NOT clear up, kids help load the dishwasher and prepare veggies (and now cook whole meals on equal terms with the rest of us, as my GMNT is about the youngest at almost 15), drag hoovers round, empty bins, whatever. Yours are a bit young for this, but I'm sure they'd love to 'help' grandam do some things. My Goddaughter helped make salad when she was three, for example.

Sounds like she is having some isuues herself, and was just tactless in her lack of understanding. Both of you move on, gently.

She's been watching you sink for longer than you have known about it. This is fairly common. And hard to know what to do and at what point.

That comes with the depression. As that lifts, so does the exhaustion. Partly because you sleep better.

Leave that on one side for the moment and deal with the stuff you CAN deal with.

Take every positive thing as a gain, and take a look at the negatives in as detatched a manner as possible. Most loom larger than they really are.

My fingers are crossed that you have found a corner and turned.

On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 20:14:53 -0500, Anne Rogers wrote (in article ):

Thanks for the update. I hope the improvments continue.

Maureen

I started this journey you are on about 30 years ago. Besides meds, counseling and help from others my favorite tool is a book called Feeling Good by David Burns. It can help you work through some of the problems depression causes like do-nothingism, verbal judo, approval addiction, ... I wish you the best. It is something I still have to work on every few years, besides always taking meds. I empathize.

Anne, FWIW, I'm so grateful that I had nightmares for so long about my parents after their deaths, and I'm so glad they are OVER. I had to work through the anger and pain; I couldn't sneak around it. It was a matter of time, patience, subconscious processing (like my nightmares), and talking therapy.

Talking therapy is really kind of a luxury and is not necessarily required for any given episode of depression. And it's hard to find a good psychologist. I say this because I don't want to sound like I'm saying that you have to follow any given route through therapy or dreaming to reach your personal comfort level. We all have to find our way through our own personal mazes.

Given that your body chemistry is probably going through major changes, too, you would probably get a lot of relief from the right anti-depressant prescribed by a doctor. The pills can "raise the bottom" of your emotional pain, so your emotions don't go as low. There have been times in my life when I have needed this kind of chemical support. The pills stopped my emotional house from burning down, so I could go ahead and do some emotional cleaning and redecorating.

I found that forgiving was mostly a matter of decision; I decided I didn't want the negativity to be living in my head rent-free. I found that I had to get a pretty good understanding of WHAT I was forgiving before I could effectively forgive it, so later things and events and pains wouldn't keep popping up in my head. I had to decide to revisit and articulate the sources of my pain, look at my own emotional reaction to it (which is where the pain really comes from -- from inside ourselves), and forgive MYSELF as well as the people who had previously contributed to my emotional damage.

It's all process, not an event. And it's been harder for me to deal with my feelings for my sister, who is still living, because she continually contrives ways to spite me, despite the fact that I don't even talk to her (none of the family does except my sister-in-law, the eternal peacemaker). I try to forgive the past, experience her continuing antics, and move on with the forgiveness to at least the point where *her* negativity is not wasting *my* emotional space. I'm not striving for saintlike forgiveness (yet :-) -- I'm just trying to take care of myself, as a first priority.

FWIW, YMMV. I hope you get to feeling better soon.

ep

What a sad statement, and one that certainly doesn't cover a great many people. My parents may not have been the greatest , but they certainly did their best, and I have no complaints. My MIL was wonderful, as was my FIL-who I unfortunately only knew for 8 years before he died of cancer. There will never be any MIL jokes or complaints from here-I loved her! My son has written us on occasion to tell us how happy he is that we're his parents and how much he loves us. It seems to me, some use their parents as an excuse for their unhappiness, when they would do well to look into themselves. Gen

Gen, until last week I did just look into myself, which is what is making this realisation so hard and as people probed into it, I was defending my parents all the way. I KNOW my parents love me, but they never said it and at times in my life I didn't know they loved me. In fear of giving me an inflated sense of self worth, they never praised me or said I was beautiful, which has the exact opposite effect and I have struggled with low self esteem ever since. All this has conditioned me into not hearing it when other people say they love me, or that I look great. They also completely avoid the subject of my depression, when I spoke to my mum yesterday, we just chatted about random stuff, when I emailed to say things were hard, they just focused on the practical and told me to stop breastfeeding, which as far as I'm concerned is not a topic up for discussion, when I told them that, they didn't reply to my email. Without admitting all this, I'd likely have done the same thing to my children.

Cheers Anne

I was and am singularly lucky in my choice of both parents and in-laws.

My parents were disciplined without being cruel, scupulously fair to all fours of us, and kindness and generosity personified when that was needed. They gave me the ability to reason, to question, to argue my case, and to give in gracefully whan that was what was needed. They gave me worth in my own eyes as well as theirs, and an independant spirit. The gave me the ability to to make my own choices and form my own opinions. And all this before I was legally an adult, at 18.

They taught me that things of value, money, and love, need to be earned but are given freely and without condition.

I did not always heed their lessons at the time. Which of us do? But I try to follow their example with my son. So far he had had no complaints, and at almost 15, under the typical adolecent moodiness and general feeling of being put upon by the exam system, is a delight to us.

My in-laws were and are the sweetest and most generous of people, loving spirits and an example of how to be supportive without interfearing or treading on toes.

I had a wonderful, busy, productive, imaginative childhood (think Swallows and Amazons with added aircraft!), surrounded by a loving family who were not afraid to show their love. I had a father who, despite frequent abscences for work, was very much more 'hands on' than many of his generation (I was a 50's and 60's child, a 70's teenager and student).

This did not prevent several prolonged bouts of clinical depression as an adult. I cannot and will not blame anyone for those. They were partly a personal characteristic, partly work induced when I was teaching, and partly hormone induced, and, in later years, have been added to by the fibromyalgia.

Not all of us posessed by deamons have had them thrust upon us by others, family or not. And with us all there has to come a time to take responsibility for our own choices and actions. One of those choices may well be to cease to be the victim of our parents errors. It is a very hard choice to make because it goes against all our conditioning and experience.

The only real error I can lay at my parents' feet is that they loved us too much: my father, in particular, was torn between his duty to his queen and country and his duty to his family, and as kids, our education was fragmented and somewhat less stable than it should have been. he faught a long battle against sending us to bording school, but I did enjoy both the experience and the stability once he gave in. However, we all took it into our own hands, at various stages, to overcome the handicap, to make the best of what we had, and do what we wanted to do. Big Sis gained her degree before her 21st birthday, Bro gained an HND in electrical engineering, and later went on to get a BSc in maths (mostly atronomy!), and after gaining my teaching certificate, I later did an MA in modern lit, despite dyslexia. It took longer, I had to work a bit harder, but I got what I desired. Little Sis opted out of Higher Education and is an Inspector with the Metropolitan Police, working with the CID. She's good at it, I hear. I'm very proud of her.

Looking at my life, past and present, I HAVE VERY LITTLE TO BE DEPRESSED ABOUT! I am extraordinarily fortunate in many ways. I no longer have to work in the ways and places that produced two of my worst episodes of depression. It doesn't stop the deamons haunting me. I find it extremely hard to throw them off because they have no underlying cause, other than the physical.

Sometimes I think it must be less dificult to work through depression if you know the causes or have something to 'blame' (for want of a better term - blame isn't exactly what I mean). You can learn to look the cause in the face and make a decision about it. When I know it's the hormones or the fibro, I can grit my teeth and work through it. When the formless deamons gather, and there is no rhyme or reason to it, and I am NOT under work stress, I find it much harder to fight off the black dog and climb out of the pit.

I may be inept, tactless, clumsy, but whatever the cause, I will always try to hold out my hand to those in the pit, and if I can't pull them out (I wouldn't presume that was possible), I will at least offer a hand to hold in the darkness.

Anne,

While you still have much to sort through, and it will take time, I am heartened to hear that things are looking up, and you are on the path to figuring these various issues out.

So glad your friend has had a change of heart. I have a feeling her earlier behavior was an inappropriate way of dealing with her concern for you.

Also glad to hear that your MIL is a help--even if she is the one entertaining the kids.

Hugs, Michelle in Nevada