A little help please

What have you used to stiffen the stand of the collar? With something heavy like a larger collar, you need a decent base, and the stand and fall should be made and interfaced separately.

Sounds very interesting--- very George III. Out of curiosity, what fabric are you using for this article? In earlier eras, it was not uncommon to use wire or pasteboard in some of the more exaggerated stand collars and the like--- both of which had to be properly anchored. But the collar here should not be that exaggerated, though some collars of this period sometimes did come up over the jaw line somewhat. As you know, this type of waistcoat would normally have been worn under a double-breasted jacket with wide revers and an even higher stand & collar. Depending on your fabric, I might suggest either buckram, crinoline, or hair canvas w/plenty of pad-stitching. I'm reluctant to suggest (possibly graded) fusible layers not knowing your fabric but that is a possibility. Depending on what you use, you may have to protect the edges of your interfacing so they do not damage the outer fabric. If the collar is a straight stand, I might suggest an extended collar facing catchstitched to the garment or underlining (if any) to help anchor the collar and give it stability. For a collar that is supposed to curve somewhat toward the jaw, you might make the inside collar section ever-so-slightly smaller than the outer section in addition to being well anchored with an extended or shaped facing. Those are my thoughts. Please do keep us posted on the outcome of your project. :)

Phae

Dear Cygnus,

There are several portraits for male attire, 1795, at La Couturiere Parisienne. None has the collar on the waistcoat; they are on the jackets.

I have restored clothing from this period, and in most cases, the interfacing was burlap or layers of heavy linen. If I were making a collar from scratch, I would interface the entire collar with one layer of sew-in interfacing, probably hair canvas, and then go back and add another layer up to the stand. You must be conscious of the roll line, and the second layer of interfacing should follow the shape of the roll line.

Teri

Thanks for the ideas so far.

The reference I have has the collar on the jacket as well, but I don't make historically accurate clothing, more sort of historically influenced clothing. The whole outfit will have more of an overall victorian influence I suppose, but then I will still be wearing new rock boots, and most likely trousers with corset lacing down the side.

The collar was mocked up in medium weight cotton with medium weight interfacing fused to it making it really quite stiff. I have no pattern to work to and am thinking it is maybe back to the drawing board with the actual pattern shape of the collar. I tried three times on Saturday to refine the shape before putting it all to one side on the grounds that I would only go insane.

I still have a silly number of things to complete before the weekend away.

Cygnus

- Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exterior whilst paddling like fury beneath

There are three examples in _Fashion in Detail_ (Hart & North) on pages

108,130, and 180. These are all simple stand collars, sort of like a mandarin but separated with the waistcoat at center front. I have them in other historical references as well. Such a collar might easily go unnoticed because the jackets worn over them in that period had such high, rolled collars. I make mandarin collars all the time for my daughter because the style suits her so well. Such collars, leastways the ones I've made, are fashioned from curved pattern pieces--- like a banana with squarish ends--- and should stand fairly well. From your earlier description, I thought perhaps you were making a higher, more exaggerated version that curves ever-so-slightly at the jaw line.

Do the stand and collar pieces curve slightly, smaller at the top than at the bottom? If they are cut absolutely straight, that might account for the finished collar angling away from the face.

I have just finished reading "Costume and Fashion - A Concise History" by James Laver. In the section on the post Napoleon era, "The Englishman's [...] coat was given tails of extravagant length, [...] waistcoats became extremely short, collars rose to great height behind the head, [but I think this refers to the outer coat collar, not the waistcoat] and neckcloths became so voluminous they sometimes rose over the chin[...].

In the section on women's clothing of the "Belle Epoch" there are several reference to women's *very* high "day-dress" collars: "[it] was kept in place by boning...".

I wonder if you could experiment with boning the collar stand?

HTH,

Beverly

It is said that a picture paints a thousand words, so I have uploaded a coupe of pics of the collar. The back is doing just what I want, the front, well lets just say I'm not happy.

There are also a couple of pics of my wifes outfit, well as far as I've got with it.

11 days and counting. I'm not worried - yet :)

Cygnus - Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exterior whilst paddling like fury beneath

Uploaded where? Did you intend to provide a URL? Maybe I missed something...

You didn't missing anything, I'm just being dense this morning.

Cygnus - Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exterior whilst paddling like fury beneath

You didn't missing anything, I'm just being dense this morning.

Cygnus - Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exterior whilst paddling like fury beneath

You didn't missing anything, I'm just being dense this morning.

Cygnus - Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exterior whilst paddling like fury beneath

You didn't missing anything, I'm just being dense this morning.

Cygnus - Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exterior whilst paddling like fury beneath

Bad morning :)

Cygnus - Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exterior whilst paddling like fury beneath

Not only am I having an off day, it appears my PC is too.

If this turns out to be my second reply sorry

the link is

- Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exteriorwhilst paddling like fury beneath

It showed up *six* times here! ;-þ

Dear Cygnus,

I tried to look at your pix, but there was nothing there.

We can be of more help if we can see the problem.

Teri

I saw it too. What beautiful designs, whether historically accurate or not. Call it "fusion" costuming. ;) I was surprised it was a full-fledged collar and not just the stand. Just goes to show you how differently we visualize things.

If I had to make a guess as to the nature of the problem, based on the types of collars I've seen on other frock coats of that period, I'd say that the collar needs to come round the front more and attach to the revers & facings to give the stand more support and anchorage. I just don't think you can have a rolled collar that high w/o more anchorage at the front and w/o a great deal of pad-stitching on the underside at the roll line to achieve a more rolled and less creased collar. Your revers seem to be placed a bit high but maybe that is just the angle of the picture. OTOH, I might be totally off base. Just trying to help. Good luck.

Phae

Went back to the collar tonight and brought it more round to the front, altered the line of the stand and appear to have something pretty close to what I'm after. Close enough for me to attempt a proper version anyway.

I will keep you posted on the outcome.

I have had some messages saying that the link didn't work and some that it did, unfortunately this is the first occasion I have used an online photo gallery so I don't know whats going on. I simply picked something of googles first page and went with it.

Thanks for all the advice from everbody to date

Cygnus - Like the swan - trying to present a calm serene exterior whilst paddling like fury beneath

Thank YOU for the interesting project and pictures. It's always good to see how these experimental things work out. :)