Coat vs Shirt

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I need some help understanding coat design.   I can not find a pattern
for a peacoat so I am trying to determine how to use what I have.

I have patterns for double breasted dress coats and a traditional
shirt.  I also have a worn out parka type coat that I am trying to
replace.

The parka and the shirt have side seams in the center of the sides and
the meet with the sleeve seam.

The dress coat, (both patterns and the ones I own), all have side
seams toward the back and do not meet with the sleeve seems and they
end at the top in a point that is hard for me to blend in with the
sleeve.

The other difference I see is that the dress coats have two part
sleeves and the shirt and parka have single piece sleeves.

What are the reasons for these differences?  Is it just a matter of
style and fit?

What it seems that I need is a double brested shirt with a simplified
collar but it is not obvious how to combine the patterns to get there.


If anyone out there has a peacoat, I would appreciate knowing which of
the above sorts it is.

Thanks,

js


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Re: Coat vs Shirt


Looks like you need to get hold of a decent book on pattern drafting.
Try the Winifred Aldridge one - if you identify it, you could order it
from your local library (or just lash out and buy it).

Schmidling of http://groups.google.com uttered
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--

AJH
alpha dot hotel echo yankee whisky oscar oscar delta at tango echo
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Re: Coat vs Shirt



Dear JS,

A coat sleeve is developed from a one-piece jacket sleeve, not a shirt
sleeve, which is almost flat across the cap.  The two-piece sleeve
allows a more fitted sleeve.  If you have a one-piece jacket sleeve
with a deep cap, rather than the shirt-type sleeve, I can explain to
you how to develop a two-part sleeve.

As for the body of the coat, start out this way.  Measure down from the
hollow in your neck to where you want the coat to open (the break
point).
It's going to be somewhere about six inches, probably.  On your front
pattern, find this same point and put a dot.  Pea coats have rather
broad revers (the part that folds back over, or the lapel).  You might
need to add to the lapel section to be wide enough.  Then from the dot
to the point, draw a gentle curve so that you don't end up with an
acute point at the point of the lapel.

For the collar, draw a line perpendicular from the neck edge of the
shoulder the same length as half of the back neck.  Draw another line
perpendicular to the end of the first collar line, towards the front.
This one should be the stand part (the underneath part attached to the
body, usually no more than 1-1/4 inches, but can be wider if you want
it) plus the desired width of the fall (the part of the collar past the
fold), plus 3/8 inch so that the seam to the body will be covered.
Draw another line from the end of this at right angles to wherever it
hits on the lapel.  The other side of the collar follows the lines of
the coat front neck.  After this working pattern is complete, cut it
out and slash it in several places, and open each place about 1/8 inch
on the outside edge only.  The other side has to stay the same to fit
to the body.  Note:  the shorter and wider one's neck is, the more
slashes are required.  Start with about three or four.

I am assuming that you know to disregard seam allowances when drafting.
 They are added only after the final draft is completed.

Teri


Re: Coat vs Shirt





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shirt


Thanks for the help but I need to sort out coat vs jacket.  I didn't
know
there was any fundamental difference other than possibly the weight.
And...
for the record my shirt sleeve is definately not flat.  It is a sort of
Gaussian curve (bell shaped) but with a slightly steeper edge on one
side
which I believe is the front.  I have made 5 shirts so far, changing
each
one a little till I have a near perfect fit.

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First of all, why do I want to use a two part sleeve on a utility type
coat?

I will ponder the rest later.

js


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Re: Coat vs Shirt


snipped-for-privacy@schmidling.com wrote:
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Yes, but if you compare this shirt sleeve cap to one from a coat or
jacket, you will see that the bell curve of the jacket/coat is MUCH steeper.

Shirts allow movement by being loose fitting: in almost complete
contrast, tailored garments in much stiffer fabrics allow movement by
following body shape, which is why there is more shaping and far more
pieces in a tailored jacket than in a shirt
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It fits better and allows more freedom of movement in the heavier
fabrics.  Many women's coats and jackets are also made with 2 part sleeves.

Take a look at some pattern pieces: the curve of the sleeve of a two
parter follows the natural curve of the arm at rest - the elbow is
naturally slightly bent.  Shirts are usually made of MUCH lighter
fabric, where a looser, straight sleeve is no impediment to movement.
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--
Kate  XXXXXX  R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
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Re: Coat vs Shirt



Dear JS,

Coat v jacket?  The body of a jacket is 1/2 to 1 inch smaller on the
sides than a basic coat.  The neckline is 1/8 inch smaller than a coat.
 You must raise the armhole to accommodate shoulder pads, the amount
depending upon size of the shoulder pads to be used.  The shoulders are
extended and deepened by 1/8 inch, and of course the length has to be
adjusted.  You always start with a basic shape before doing details.

Here's how to take a one-piece jacket sleeve, and turn it into a
two-piece.  You must have a jacket sleeve, NOT a shirt sleeve to get
the correct shape.
Measure across the pattern (seam lines, not cut edges--it's easier to
remove the seams before starting), at the bicep (underarm), elbow and
wrist.  Divide each measurement in thirds, and mark dots on the
pattern.  Draw lines to connect the dots on both sides, and extend the
lines at the underarms upwards, keeping the same angles.  Now, fold the
pattern along the lines you just drew, and trace the underarm section
within the center third of the pattern.  This is the under sleeve.
Don't cut it out yet.

For the upper sleeve, measure out from the center third just completed
2-1/4 inches at the underarm, 2 inches at the elbow, and 1-3/4 inches
at the wrist.  Draw lines to connect these dots.

Before cutting, measure up on the under sleeve 1-1/2 inches and put a
dot.  Do the same thing 1-1/2 inches down.  This is the area that needs
to be eased.  Mark the upper sleeve in the same way, only 2 inches in
each direction.  Trace one of the pieces before you cut, so that you
will have separate upper and under sleeve sections.  Draw short lines
to make into notches; two on the back part of the seam; two in the back
cap, one on the front cap.  To give even more shape to the sleeve, cut
each at the elbow, and open about 1/2 inch along the elbow side, so
that the shape is definitely bent at the elbow towards the front.  You
will be opening one side, while the part closest to the front is still
attached.  It will look like a dart.

Measure across the undersleeve at the underarm.  Then measure the upper
sleeve at the underarm.  The two pieces should total the original
measurement before you started drafting.  If they do not, adjust the
upper sleeve equally on both sides until it does.

Teri


Re: Coat vs Shirt


I have a basic question on size.

If I make a shirt to size 44, it fits very well.  A coat obviously has
to be larger to accommodate thicker fabrics, linings etc.

If I build a coat from a pattern size 44 will it take all this into
consideration or do I need to start with a larger pattern?


The coat I started in 44 does not seem like it will fit by the time I
fill and line it.

My plans are to use my not so nice fleece for an inner lining. The good
stuff I sent off for machine carding and kept a few pounds for felting.
 Not sure how to handle the inner... I wet felted a piece about two sq
feet and it would work but it's a lot of work.  I tried needle felting
some and it's a lot easier but really fluffy.  Any thoughts on this?
Should I padstitch to the outer fabric or the lining or ?  

js


Re: Coat vs Shirt


You need to understand the difference between your body measurements,
wearing ease, and design ease. If your chest measurement is 44", then a
shirt which measures exactly that will be skin tight. In order to
breathe, you need to add around 2" wearing ease. If you make a jacket
with a finished chest measurement of 46" and put it onto a 44" torso, it
will fit like a shirt. For it to fir like a jacket, you need at least 4"
wearing ease. If the styles you aspire to are more loosely-fitting than
that (e.g. to allow for wadding, interlining, garments worn iunderneath)
you need to add further design ease.

Again, Jack, you *really* *do* *need* at this point to get hold of a
basic book on pattern drafting (via an inter-library loan or your local
college perhaps) and read it. Mind you, the way this thread is running,
we'll shortly have written one between us. Don't get me wrong, i'm not
saying "don't ask" - but i am saying that IMHO you should be motivating
yourself to doing some research other than just asking questions here.
Do some reading, then ask for clarifications, opinions, etc, that way
you'll get on far faster.

snipped-for-privacy@schmidling.com of http://groups.google.com uttered
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--

AJH
alpha dot hotel echo yankee whisky oscar oscar delta at tango echo
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Re: Coat vs Shirt


obeyed once every Preston Guild of no.spam uttered
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Here you go - the winifred aldrich menswear book - this should give you
some food for thought ;) beware, you may develop a tendency to wards
"cerebral sewing" - too many ideas, too little time.

(Amazon.com product link shortened)
/ref=sr_1_3_3/026-7891119-4312466
--

AJH
alpha dot hotel echo yankee whisky oscar oscar delta at tango echo
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Re: Coat vs Shirt


First of all, last trip to the library neted 5 books on sewing so I
haven't been just asking questions. But this is all new to me and there
is a lot to absorb.  Keep in mind I am starting with a sheep.  I built
a spinner, learned to use it, built a loom ditto, made some shirts and
a coat is just the next step.

I looked at that link and it is in the UK so I will try to find a local
source but the title "Metric Pattern Cutting" does not jump out as a
book I would even have noticed.

js


Re: Coat vs Shirt


snipped-for-privacy@schmidling.com of http://groups.google.com uttered
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Ah - try looking on Amazon rather than Amazon UK. The David coffin shirt
book is apparently an excellent one too - the only men's apparel I make
up is shirts done to a particular designer's spec, so I've never drafted
one. I can warp a loom, but if I need to keep a sheep or learn to spin
I'll know who to pester! ;)

--

AJH
alpha dot hotel echo yankee whisky oscar oscar delta at tango echo
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Re: Coat vs Shirt


snipped-for-privacy@schmidling.com of http://groups.google.com uttered
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Here you go

(Amazon.com product link shortened)
r=1-4/ref=sr_1_4/002-1707705-4459233?v=glance&s=books

(Amazon.com product link shortened)
_1/002-1707705-4459233?v=glance&s=books

Aldrich appears to be harder/ slower to obtain than in the UK - a lead
time of 1 to 2 months seems ridiculous (they're presumably shipping from
here). It's probably be quicker for me to order it here and post it out
to you.

However, I did find this:
(Amazon.com product link shortened)
707705-4459233

Have a browse and see what turns up.
--

AJH
alpha dot hotel echo yankee whisky oscar oscar delta at tango echo
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Re: Coat vs Shirt


snipped-for-privacy@schmidling.com wrote:
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It should fit fine, but do check and buy by measurements, especially if
you are buying patterns of different makes!
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If you make it according to the instructions for fabric and
construction, it *should* fit in theory.  HOWEVER, it is always wise to
check!  With complex patterns you want to make up in expensive fabric,
it is wise to make a toile/muslin out of cheap fabric first, to check
for these little differences.
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If this is thicker than the interlining recommended, you may well have
to make a bigger size.  Yes, do pad stitch it in place if possible: this
will stop it moving about between the outer fashion fabric and the lining.


--
Kate  XXXXXX  R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
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Re: Coat vs Shirt


Would this help you?  https://www.gmidesign.com/stretch/1052.htm

It's a woman's peacoat.  I have the pattern...hang on...

from the envelope back:

This coat features a classic double-breasted front closure.  This design
includes a rounded collar with collar stand, front and side darts for
shaping, lined, rounded patch pockets with flaps, and topstitching detail.
Coat may be completely buttoned, or left partially unbuttoned to form a
lapel.  Coat front may be interfaced, if desired, for added stability.  View
A is an unlined coat.  View B is a lined coat.

----
now, lemme see.....  It is a two piece sleeve with the seam ending in the
middle of the back part of the armscye.  What that should get you (in a coat
that fits you well) is mobility and a good fit.  I would say what you've
fought with on other coats that have a 2 piece sleeve is bad fit.

I think if you want to draft your own peacoat pattern, you might think about
looking at suit coat patterns and going from there.  It's closer to a suit
coat than a shirt.  Remember that a jacket is going to have greater ease
(ease is where the garment measures out larger than your body measurement on
purpose.  It allows for "ease" of movement.) than a shirt.  I suppose you
could get there from a shirt pattern if you allowed more ease, but that can
be tricky.  If I had to start from square one, I'd start with a
double-breasted suit coat pattern and study from there.  Key changes are
going to be the lapel and front opening.

HTH!
Sharon


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Re: Coat vs Shirt


Jack Schmidling wrote:
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Over in rec.crafts.textiles.sewing you asked the same question in
March:

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Did you look at:

Vogue #  7988
http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/voguepatterns/shop.cgi?s.item.V7988=x&TI=20014&page=1
Leave out the shaping and substitute patch pockets.

If you want something a little less complicated, KwikSew 2462:
http://www.kwiksew.com/Cold_Fusion/catalog/Frame_New.cfm

--
Beverly
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Re: Coat vs Shirt


Please excuse this if  it shows up twice but my isp is very unreliable
posting to usenet and this never showed up in google groups.....


"BEI Design"

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Not exactly the same question.

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http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/voguepatterns/shop.cgi?s.item.V7988=x&TI=20014&page=1
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Actually, I bought this one and have attempted two muslins from it. The
first is single brested and the second double.   The first was the
single
brested version and I cut it to my size but it obviously will never be
big
enough for a heavy winter coat.  It's a nice fit for a dinner jacket.

I started on the double brested one and got to the point that generated
the
questions in this thread.  It seems gross overkill just to make a
peacoat
type coat.

Also, "leave out shaping"  may be the key but I don't really know what
that
all entails.


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I looked at that and it seems to be very much like KS2000 from which I
made
my shirts so I didn't bother buying it.

Botttom line, is I still need a pattern for my winter coat.

js


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Re: Coat vs Shirt


How about finding a coat that you like the fit at a second hand shop, take
it apart to use for the basic pattern pieces?  Then modify as needed to make
it a pea coat: larger collar, double breasted, etc.  Might be the easiest
way to do it...

When doing this, you'll also see some of the construction that went in to
it.....

HTH

Cappy


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http://store.sewingtoday.com/cgi-bin/voguepatterns/shop.cgi?s.item.V7988=x&TI=20014&page=1
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Re: Coat vs Shirt



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Since that pattern is for a *coat* not a *jacket* I'm guessing you
used the wrong size (too small).  The double breasted version, with
minor modifications, would work for me if I were making a Pea Coat.
(Larger collar, wider lapels, minimal shaping).

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Whatever floats your boat.  :-)

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The Vogue pattern I provided the link to is for a more *formal* man's
overcoat.  For a simple shape like a Pea Coat, omit the darts, and
alter the seams where there is waist shaping so it's more of a boxy
shape.  The double breasted view A is very close to what I would use
to make a Pea Coat but I'd use the collar and lapels from view C, and
make them a bit wider.

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Maybe buy an inexpensive ready-made coat that is close to what you
want and take it apart to make a pattern?  <shrug>

--
Beverly
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Re: Coat vs Shirt


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Off to the charity shop with you! Quick-smart!

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AJH
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