MODERATOR

Thank You juno

Part Two is just for you! :)

It is late at night, and the house is filled with the the gentle clickety-clack and occasional faint squeal of metal on metal as the treadle clicks on into the wee small hours... Kate is busy with a confection of silk and tulle, spangles, and pearls. A mug of tea is slowly congealing on the window sill. Behind the curtain you may catch a glimpse of three small penguins waiting to move in when the ice flows set...

There is a rustle and a thunk behind her in the sewing room, and a soft swear word creeps out.

Kate (still treadling serenely): SHHH! James is sleeping!

Carl: Hey, Lady? You gonna sew like that all night?

Kate: Can't see any reason why not!

Carl: The boss wants me to ask me some more questions about the trolls.

Kate: Tomorrow! Or after breakfast, anyway!

Carl: But - !

Kate: But me no buts! This is MY house, and here you follow my rules! No talking when I'm sewing, no questions before breakfast!

(Carl creeps out of the sewing room and stands under the light, staring curiously at the thing Kate is stitching.)

Kate: Move, chum! You are in my light! (She LOOKS at him severely over her specs in the reflection in the dark window in front of her. If he wasn't so nervous, he'd look like Will Smith in his Men In Black suit. He shifts to the left, standing in the bathroom doorway)

Carl: Excuse me, ma'am, but what is this that you are making?

Kate: It's a purple fairy costume. Pass me that string of beaded fringe on the side of the bath... Ta muchly! (Carl hands it to her. Kate unwinds it, and starts feeding it in under the foot and needle, treadling slowly and carefully in curving lines.)

Carl: But ma'am, it VAAAST! What kind of fairy is sixteen feet high and had a 72 inch waist:

Kate: That's the hem, not the waist. And only the train is sixteen feet long. Here's a fine Scots saying for you: Fools and bairns should never see things half done!

Carl: Ma'am, about these trolls...

Kare: AFTER breakfast!

Carl: Ma'am, it's breakfast time in New York.

Kate: Ha! I bet. Ok, what do you REALLY need to know?

Carl: We at the FBI need to know in what way these trolls are a threat to national security.

Kate: Of that I have no idea, and in that I have no great interest. All I know is that we on the newsgroups stomp on them or starve them out, along with the mad advertisers who can't be bothered to read the charter.

Carl: You have a charter?

Kate: Oh yes. We've ALWAYS had a charter!

Kate reaches into one of the treadle drawers and extracts a fat scroll tied with a red ribbon and sealed with a huge wax disk, on which is embossed a lady who looks like something from a William Morris tapestry, treadling on an ancient machine. Carl breaks the seal and a long strip of illuminated parchment unrolls down the stairs... A great decorated capital in Gothic script adorn the opening paragraph. As the dawn turns the world outside the window to shades of gray, and the penguins move in to the tea mug, Carl sits on the top stair and starts to read...

"Welcome Sewists and new posters! Here are some guidelines to posting to the sewing newsgroups. In case you are wondering where you are and how you got here, you are in a newsgroup, AKA "usenet" which is a part of the internet that has been around much much longer than the www, which it is not a part of. These groups are not moderated.

This information is protocol and etiquette that has been in use for over

*20* years on Usenet (newsgroups are Usenet)... "

Juno, your admission is refreshing; you have great self-awarness. But do you really want to paint others in this group with the same brush?

Dictionary definition: up-pi-ty: adj. Tending to be snobbish or arrogant.

JPBill

Bill. that's your definition and here's mine " uppity women. You know who you are. You are a woman who refuses to keep your place, to limit yourself in any way, to live down to others' expectations. You are a woman who gets up again and again, every time life knocks you down." Your's is the typical response for anyone who can not abide us. I prefer mine Juno

Well, I just replied to a message. It could have been any message.

Utter rubbish. I've posted overlocker help for people, and about our treadle sewing machine, asked for help and tried to give thanks for that help as often as possible.

Just because I don't agree with you on something, there's no need to post lies to build yourself up - and put me down.

Allan.

I *do* see the productive discussion. I see a lot of non-productive discussion too. My point is, just because a site link is not productive to person #1, doesn't mean it's unproductive to you or me.

I've said it in the past and I'll say it again. People here keep going on about usenet "rules". When they're NOT usenet's rules - they're rules some people that USE a group agree on. There are other people here who may not agree with those rules. Why should group 1 be able to censor group 2 from learning of a sewing-related site? (Simply because they think they should be able to.)

While I think it's wrong for one person to force their view on another, as a matter of fact I don't even have a problem with the rule. What I do detest is the way some people here go about it. They say the person posted advertising, and it's against their "rule", yet admit they never bothered to visit the site to weigh its value, or speak to them directly. (This is obvious from their reaction.)

In the last few days, someone pointed out words to the effect that there's no official FAQ. I don't know if that's true or not. But the person said they tried to find it and couldn't. Their site was sewing related, so they posted it to a sewing group where it belongs. But because they didn't think to ask the people here, they're considered spamming scum - not someone who simply didn't know your rule.

If they did ask individuals, they would have gotten a range of replies. And who's to say one opinion is better than another. I wouldn't ask individuals in a group either - for that very reason.

To contact someone's ISP on the first "infraction", is like bullies in the playground that beat up on that year's new kids. Mature people welcome new kids and say, "You probably shouldn't do that, because..."

You might represent many people, maybe even the majority. It doesn't mean you represent all. It is always obvious which messages are adverts for viagra, pyramid schemes, etc. The real issue here, is people are more interested in policing their rules like vigilantes than acting like human beings.

I read somewhere people make what they really think into a joke, so they're real thoughts don't sound as offensive as they know they are.

Allan

Exactly my point. People here can jump down other's throats on ads, because they know it's popular to do so.

People can enforce their supposed rules without being mean spirited about it.

Um... You did say it, didn't you? As quoted from above... "I think it's no great loss to shut someone down who is depriving a pattern creator of the right to control their intellectual property." So you didn't visit the site, but know that's what they do. That's all I meant.

Now you've confused me. That's what I was saying. Some people post unaware of people's "rules". People say they should have asked here first, but I wouldn't have thought of that either, since their site was sewing related. Look how they got treated for not being mindreaders.

Oh I'm not - I don't mean it to sound that way. I'm just answering your message, but replying to everyone with the answers.

Oops, sorry. I must've misread that. Thought you said "non profit site" in that paragraph.

Allan

[rolls eyes]

What rubbish. Why don't you say what you really mean... Because I don't agree with you, it irks you. I hate spam just as much as the next person. I just don't agree it was spam, as spam is always unrelated to the subject of the group its posted in. Viagra has nothing to do with sewing. A sewing site does.

If you got off your high horse, you would realise it's not the spam I'm defending. It's people's right to be approached to their face, instead of stabbed in the back.

Too bad the bullies and backstabbers are still here too.

Allan.

Yes.

I just don't agree sewing related websites are spam, or that they should not be allowed to post links to their site in a sewing group. But that's ok, because that's only my opinion - and not allowing them is only someone else's opinion.

Either way, it could be handled better than the backstabbing I see by knifing others in the back by going straight to their ISP. Man alive, how immature!

It's not really about "making the group better for discussion" - just better for MY discussions.

Allan.

Perhaps you haven't been on Usenet long, Alan?

--------- "That these customs and traditions [of Usenet] began when Usenet was much smaller and quite different in nature in no way lessens the anger many users feel when these customs and traditions are violated.=20

One such custom is the tradition and belief that it is rude to advertise for profit in Usenet newsgroups.=20

Advertising is widely seen as an 'off-topic' intrusion into the discussions of any particular newsgroup (newsgroup is the Usenet word for discussion group or bulletin board). Each newsgroup has a specific set of subjects it is intended to cover, and in order for newsgroups to function as effective discussion forums, it is important that people stay'on-topic'. If everyone disregarded the particular topics each newsgroup is intended to cover and simply posted whatever they wanted wherever they want, the entire system would break down.=20

Due to the decentralized nature of Usenet, there is no one person or body which can "enforce" the custom of staying on-topic. It falls on each user to help preserve the culture of open discussion and free speech that Usenet has come to embody by not posting off-topic material.

This, of course, includes advertising. Advertising is by far the most pervasive form of off-topic posting, and therefore, gets most of the heat.=20

An analogy

----------

If an analogy will help you to visualize the situation, imagine a meeting at your workplace or school.=20

At this meeting, people are discussing a certain issue -- for example, getting new sidewalks installed downtown or getting new schoolbooks for the elementary school, or what to do about the new product your company is planning on introducing.=20

In the midst of the discussions on the new sidewalks or textbooks or product, someone walks into the room, interrupts everyone, then reads an advertisement for a local restaurant. He or she then leaves without waiting for comment.=20

Now imagine if this happened over and over again each time your group tried to hold a meeting. Every time someone tried to make a point, in walks some other stranger who reads an ad for some business that has nothing to do with the subject of the meeting.=20

It would soon become rather difficult to hold effective meetings, wouldn't it?=20

Similarly, it's very difficult to keep Usenet newsgroups interesting and useful when people deluge newsgroups with advertisements."

=46rom: =20

ftp://ftp.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/advertising/how-to/part1

-------

Now, each and every Usenet discussion group has to be REQUESTED to be created. That is, a person submits a group for consideration so it can be set up and be used. The individual who submits a group for consideration has to also submit the name and ***** charter **** of the proposed group and whether it will be moderated or unmoderated:

So, alt.sewing was created quite a while ago, but it DID have a charter submitted. The newsgroup charters, which are very specific about the fact that advertising is unwelcome here, are part of the official FAQs for the newsgroup, which are available from

ftp://rtfm.mit.edu/pub/usenet-by-group/alt.sewing/

The charter for alt.sewing is the same as for rec.crafts.textiles.sewing , which is:

CHARTER: This group will be for discussions about all aspects of sewing, not covered by other newsgroups, whether for for clothes, home furnishings, outdoor equipment, costumes, etc. Technical aspects include pattern drafting and fitting, different fabrics, notions, useful books, workshops and shows, inspiration, sewing machines,sergers and other hardware, etc.=20

--------

But I suppose you'll blow this off as well....."all that crap is only someone's opinion!" or something like that.... I imagine you'd also like to be able to drive without any rules either.

-------------- You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough.=20

--Mae West=20

--------------

That definition works for me.

So, Allan. What machines do you own? What kind of sewing do you do? Sorry if you've already answered this, I missed it. Would you mind repeating?

Ah, thanks sooooo much!

Now, I'm worried about those penguins, do be careful! Frightful little buggers, they are....

;-)

Beverly

Oh, but she's right! *I'm* one of her deliciously uppity international friends! I'm ornery too, on occasion.

And very VERY competent at many things*. I think that's what scare blokes like this the most.

*And dottily incompetent at lots of others!

Oh the penguins are OK... It's the polar bears that cause the problems! Once you find a polar bear in the teapot, it's time for a fresh pot!

Have you ever tried to evict a polar bear from a teapot?

Scene: Early morning in Kate's kitchen. The kettle is just coming up to the boil, but there's trouble...

Kate (lifting lid of teapot): Oi! You - out!

(Growling from teapot)

Kate: I said OUT! This is MY teapot! Next door have a nice garden pond you can play in.

(More grumbling growls)

Kate: So EAT the effing goldfish! You're bigger than they are! How can a polar bear be scared of goldfish? ('Nother growl) No. I'm not scared of snakes. Nor spiders.

(Long grumbling and growling in petulant tones)

Kate: Yes it's lovely and cold out there. Some bits of Kent had snow last night. No, I don't care if it *is* April, it still snowed!*

(Kate goes through to living room and prods comatose figure under quilts on sofa)

Kate: Oi, Carl, or whateveryername is, come and tell this polar bear about the snow!

(Carl groans and rises slowly from the sofa. Being a tall fella, he's rather stiff and cramped, and his elegant suit is rumpled. He rubs the sleep from his eyes and shambles through to the kitchen. A small polar beat stares at him from the teapot.)

Carl: 'Morning , Sir. This lady is right. Last night it snowed. That is why she let me kip on the sofa rather than flinging me out to camp in the garden.

(The bear pops down. Scrabbling and shuffling noises are heard from the teapot. The bear emerges, carrying a small suitcase and wearing Raebans. Carl picks him up and places him outside on the garden steps. He points to the pond in next door's garden. The bear shuffles off under the bushes, and a moment later is heard splashing and singing in his new home. Carl closes the door and retreats to the kitchen. Kate is rinsing out the teapot.)

Kate: Good man! Breakfast won't be a moment. Now if you'd just pop upstairs you'll find a mug of cold tea with some penguins in it on the window ledge behind the treadle...

*This is true: bits of this county and lumps of Scotland got snow last night. At least two roads through the Highlands are closed this morning! Now you see why we Brits talk about the weather so much! Oh, and I have a four pint teapot. The polar bear wasn't too cramped.

Not MY definition; came right out of the "American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language" I'm not name-calling you; that's what it means, regardless of your personal definition or spin.

I have no problem with assertive women. I was raised among them, taught to respect and appreciate them and still do.

But they achieved great things without the need to call attention to themselves with aggressive behaviour, picking fights and bullying. Overcompensating, maybe? I do have a problem letting that pass,as my previous posts bear witness. Sorry if I hit a nerve. JPBill

I mainly visit here to ask questions to problems my wife & I come across.

She owns/owned:

Overlockers:

Janome 234D (2) Janome 534D Janome 604D Pfaff hobbylock 788 Bernina 2500-DCET

One 234D and the 534D have gone now (sold).

Sewing machines:

A 1980s Janome

2x 1950s Singer 99Ks Janome Decor Excel 5018 And a "Baberfald Bluebird" treadle (now sold)

I'm considering purchasing a Husqvarna Rose/Lily/Orchidea for her (if I can ever work out which one is better/newer). And later an embroidery machine - if I can find the time to make a list all the different options/features so I can make an informed choice.

Allan

I used to read another Newsgroup-----Someone spammed a website, and when an objection was raised the spammer got hold of the founder of the group who was talked into accepting the idea that "on topic" ads were OK.

The Newsgroup is now defunct.........only ads. All the users have left because they couldn't get a word in edgewise.........So I know from my own experience that "on topic spam" is just as bad as any other kind.