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I don't think so. If I'm remembering my Sunday School days properly (it was

60 odd years ago) wan't it 'Im up there who said no worshipping of false gods?. Don't think that counts as the eye of the beholder.

I suggest false gods are what society as a whole deems them to be.

Certainly in my book capitalism, materialism and avarice are false gods. I could go on, but those are the obvious ones.

At something of a tangent, it's sad but people confuse religion and faith. Faith is a gift of your god, religion is the gift of the devil. Equally, some of the most unpleasant and bigotted (I was going to say unChristian, but that would be presumptuous of me) people I've come across are ardent church-goers.

Enough of this, back to the sewing! :-)

I had to read that 3 times to make sense of it.

Just because any system of government doesn't insist on a very public display of religion doesn't mean that it is either Godless or atheistic

It doesn't prohibit any. It just, in effect, says that the religion of any individual is their own business and thus is a private thing.

I'm sure you won't believe me, but I cannot tell you how noticeable it is to someone looking in from the outside of your country the astounding number of times your politicians mention God in their speeches or 10 second grabs. To someone viewing your country from the outside, your politicians in comparison to the ones we have here look and sound like fundamentalist Christians. I find that scary given that the US is the most powerful nation militarily in the world.

Nah! The Fabric Stash God is very real.

2 words: Maggie Thatcher.

NOT a woman!

So that room with all the piles of fabric, tubs of fabric, shelves of fabric and fabric hanging on hangers is not the guest room/sewing room, it's an in-home chapel? Works for me!

They're appealing to a large part of the population that have turned to religion because of the promises of better times to come - either in this world or the next. The jobs their parents and grandparents relied on have been outsourced to India, China, and other places. Goods come from China, not factories in this country, and they come laden with poisons. In large parts of the country, people have to leave to find work, or stay to live in poverty. Those who do move find work in the service industry, not in skilled trades. Then they're dislocated and lose their support network of family and friends. Some realize that we now have a debt that they cannot pay, that their children and grandchildren will have to pay, and that China holds most of the debt. The dollar has dropped in value. Unemployment is high even though the military services are absorbing as many as will apply and who can pass the requirements. Eight short years ago, we had no debt and the economy was good. Now, most of us are scared. Scared people turn to religion.

Oooops.

That's Ann Coulter. Maggie was, wasn't she? Just an Amazon type.

Baloney. If you think we're bad in the US, check out Italy. I was there a few years ago...God gets mentioned in every other sentence. In Islamic countries, everything is based on religion - even science.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of the people who say they are a Christian are not in fact a Christian and certainly not a fundamentalist. If they were Christianity and fundamentalists would have a very different reputation in the populace at large.

Ya'll have had a very good time in the last few days bashing Christianity, fundamentalists and people of faith in general. And I've kept my silence. God has kept his hand on my mouth.

Well, I'm not going to disapoint Him now. However, I must say, your lack of understanding of true fundamentalist Christianity is very sadly lacking.

A born-again Baptist, reformed, charismatic and Amish in her heart, AK in PA

:-)) I assume you didn't see the special they did on her where she showed the interviewer her wardrobe?

The way she talked about her clothes and the care she took of them made me review my opinion of her. I think she does rate even if it is in the wicked Witch of the West category.

I don't mind if you disagree with me, but please make some effort to give a sensible response. "Baloney" is not a senseible response.

I'm sure you have no idea what the comparitive amount of mentioning of "God" is between my country's politicians and those of your country and unless you are in my mind then you have no idea whether your politicians scare me or not.

If you think we're bad in the US, check out Italy. I was

That wouldn't surprise me but then the discussion wasn't about Italy. It was about US politics and I introduced my country as a comparison. If Samantha lived here, she really would think that God had been deleted from politics and those in politics. She doesn't, but she seems to think that God/religion is not on the agenda for US politicians. I can assure her it is and to a degree that always surprises me.

In

Yes. That is called a theocracy, but you and I don't live in one. It has already been raised and Samantha doesn't want one, just a bit more evidence of God.

Before you get too upset perhaps you should consider that there can be any number of groups around the world that can be considered a "populace at large". What is "fundamentalist" to you may not be the same thing that I would consider fundamentalist and someone in another country may consider it to be different again.

It is about what is the "standard" for the level of Godliness/religiosity at work within the country being discussed. In this case I was discussing the differences between your country and mine.

You and Samantha would both consider my country to be full of Godless heathens if you visited because religious worship in this country is all but invisible because it is considered to be a private and personal thing.

Charismatic religions are rare here and considered by that "populace at large" that you mentioned as being 'odd' as are it's adherents. Proclaiming one's faith in public is considered socially suspect outside one's faith. Very few churches have any sign outside them that would say anything other than the times of the services to be held and which days of the week (or in rural areas which Sunday of the month as few hold services more than once a month). A few in the cities do have signs carrying a religious message outside the church but in comparison to the US they are extremely subdued in their message.

You think so? My family were Brethren. Even in the US that would qualify as fundamentalist and also "Christian" (of a sort, but not one I would like to call Christian: I would call it a cult).

If you are a Baptist, then perhaps you will recognise the name James Spurgeon? My Grt Grt grandparents were married by him at Spurgeons Tablernacle in London. I have some of his books but I certainly can't say that I have read them in recent years.

And compared to some of today's sleazy lot she was straight talking (if you can have a straight talking politician) and whether you love or loathe her politics, she has many admirable qualities. Also rare these days she was a politician who had worked in the "real world" before entering the bear fight.

Lizzy

How is that scary? Are you afraid someone will pounce on you and spirit you away to a convent or something?

Really? I had no idea that it was within the purview of an Australian to set standards for what passes in American society, unless you are remarking upon our differences. I ask because you seem to feel a calling to insert yourself into defining what should pass for our American way of life. Is that a standard that I may follow? Funny, I lived in Nigeria for 3 years and in the UK for 1/2 a year - yet I felt it would be very rude to instruct the British on how to conduct themselves and their government. If you feel such is your calling, why don't you apply for immigration to this country where you can be more actively involved?

Quite within your rights, as are our practices in our own country. Far be it for anyone to tell you how you should live and what your national culture should be. Cheeky!

I ask again, is that an observation or by way of instruction?

I share AK's lack of recognition in this. While I am a Presbyterian, I have close relationships with people of many faiths - close enough that we discuss our faiths and differences with appreciation and respect. Our friends are Catholics, Lutherans, Jews, UCC, Episcopalian, Mormons, and fundamental protestants. I find joy in the fact that we all believe in God. We go in and out of one anothers churches all the time. I don't think you can call engineers, Ph.D's, scientists, doctors, nurses, and teachers weak minded. Rather than seeking religion because we are fearful as has been suggested, we celebrate the richness that our belief in God and Christ brings to our common lives. None of the discussion I've read in this thread is any where near my experience or what I see.

The Brethren in this country have roots close to the Amish and Mennonites back in 17th century Switzerland/Germany. Hardly a cult. Perhaps you meant 'denomination'. I live in an adjacent county to AK and have had a great opportunity to witness how giving this segment of our population is, since I sense her reservation to mention it. When there is a world crisis, they very quietly pick up their tools and go off to make the world a better place for those afflicted. They have one of the best charitible organizations in the world, although they go about it so quietly that it is hardly known and they receive very little credit.

There is a vast difference in the kind of Baptist Spurgeon was to that of the Anabaptists in this area.

Sharon

I just know I'm going to regret responding to you given the tone of your post and especially given what appears to be very deliberate misunderstandings on your part of what I have written, but I'll do it anyway.

I never trust politicians who believe that God is on their side (I am using the word 'God', but put in any prophet or deity you can think of). Tie that to major military power and the ability to impose that power anywhere in the world and I find it even more scary.

Since I wrote that I WAS discussing the differences between our countries I would have thought that should have been absolutely and completely obvious to anyone.

I ask because you seem to feel a

That is absolute, complete and utter rubbish. Reread the thread. I was not in any way defining what should pass for your American way of life. If you want to troll, then start a new thread but if you respond to something I write then respond to what I have actually written not what you choose to imagine that I have written.

I personally do not give a rat's posterior about what individual Americans do or why. I do care deeply about American Foreign Policy or Trade policy because that applies beyond your borders and impacts on all of the world's citizens.

I also care when an Administration is influenced by religious belief and that results in ill considered military action whihc I believe, as do most respected commentators, in the case of the US intervention in Iraq and that results in my country and the young men of my country also being dragged into that conflict.

Furthermore, if you bother to reread the thread, then you might notice that I made no attempt whatsoever to define how Americans live or what they believe. I was trying to explain to Samantha, who thinks that religion and God is not apparent in your society, that it IS to someone looking inwards. And I then tried to explain to AK that my own society is a lot less religious/Godly than yours and respond to her comments about why much of your society looks and feels fundamentalist to someone looking in.

If you can't understand that then that is your problem. It's obvious that what you really mean is that I am not entitled to have an opinion on the US or anything about it. I do, I will and I will continue to do so, just as I have for any other country that I am interested in and which can impact on my life and that of my family.

Is that a standard that I may follow? Funny, I

Nice troll but I really couldn't be bothered rising to your very obvious baiting attempt.

Yes you are, but I'll forgive your provocative attempt to try to give a new meaning for what I wrote.

It's obvious.

So, where did someone call them weak minded? Or is this more deliberate reinvention on your part?

If you bother to reread the thread, you will notice that the whole discussion arose because some of us have strong objections to the invasion of privacy caused by some Christians (note some) who believe that they have the right to come onto our properties without invitation and preach. I would object to anyone doing this whether they are Christians or brush salesmen or political parties.

No-one wrote anything that I can recall that suggested that Christians (or anyone of any faith) were not entitled to have and practice religion or to worship in any way they wanted.

Rather than

No I meant cult. And you don't know your religious history either, but given the other silliness you've engaged in, that doesn't surprise me. The Brethren began in 1825 in Dublin and later split into 2 sects.

A usenet truth, offered with the very best of intentions:

'Argue with a fool and you risk confusing the onlookers as to who is the bigger fool.'

My 4th grt grandfather was Brethren. He and his father and the family left Imperial German service (and quite a bit of wealth) to come to Pennsylvania for their religious freedom. Their date of arrival in Philadelphia harbour was 1630. The date on the house they built is 1638, it still exists.

Brethren/Amish come from Anabaptist roots. Anabaptists can be traced back to the first century home chuches started by the apostles or their disciples. I do have books in my possession on these subjects.

And my eight grade history teacher thought I wasn't interested in history.

And with that I end all interest in this thread.

AK in PA