I very much doubt that fixing the "gravy train" of government services and offering even lower wages would fix the problem in the US. The illegals are coming from such a low standard of living that the US looks like Heaven by comparison. The US was founded by those who sought a better life and the current illegals are jsut trying to do the same thing today.
It wouldn't at the level of the voting public but it probably would at the funding level. Joe Public doesn't give a hoot about illegals (and possibly benefits in the form of cheap yard or housework) but those who provide funding to political parties gain from access to low paid workers in one form or another.
I completely agree that the US looks like heaven by comparison. But I totally disagree with you that the illegals are trying to do the same thing as the immigrants that built this country into what it is. The US was founded by people who wanted to make this country one nation. They came here *legally*, they learned English, they stayed here, they brought their families here *legally*, and there was no massive public subsidy net to support them.
I wouldn't have anywhere near so much of a problem with them being here if they didn't do all this stuff that they are legally not allowed to do compared to the immigrants who originally came here 150-250 years ago and helped build this country (and yes, some of them probably cheated, but not in massive quantities like they do today), and I have absolutely no sympathy for their plight -- they broke the law, they know they did, and having sympathy for them in my mind is akin to having sympathy to the guy who was breaking into a school, fell through a skylight, injured his back, and sued the school district for his medical bills (and unfortunately won). I try to follow the law as best I can, and while I am not perfect at it, I know better than to deliberately break it and then try to play on people's sympathies for the situation I am in.
That doesn't mean I hate the individual people. I just hate the principles that they are operating under, and I blame immigration lawyers and socialists for encouraging it.
That also doesn't mean that I think there is an easy solution. The longer it goes on, the harder it is to fix. At this point, it is an incredibly complicated problem that has no easy solutions.
Personally, I would like to see the government say something like, "If you want to be here legally, enlist in our military and/or give us X years of public service to our country in order to earn your right to citizenship," like they have to Filipinos who have joined the Navy. I think that would be a better answer than amnesty programs, guest worker programs, etc.
I have a acquaintance who has few skills and is borderline mentally ill as in not enough to qualify for disability but enough that he has a hard time learning new skills and is not college material, and he has a really hard time finding and keeping work, because potential employers compare him to the illegals and they prefer to hire the easily-replaceable, cheap illegals rather than him. It just seems to me that something is wrong with this picture that someone who was born here ends up homeless and struggling to survive while someone who is here illegally gets on the public dole and gets preferential treatment. Dropping the minimum wage back down, or at least not continuing to increase it, would be a good disincentive for potential employers.
Oooops! Better review U.S. history. This country was founded by people who were fleeing economic and religous conditions they didn't benefit from. They were reluctant to form any kind of union with other colonies that didn't share their interests. This country came within a hair of adopting German as the national language. There are parts of the country where German is still spoken in homes. In other parts, it's French and Italian, but it was German that came closest to being our "official" language. When I lived in South Florida, over 50 years ago, everything was bilingual with English and Spanish, and that was before the big Cuban influx.
Immigration requirements came later, during the 19th century, I believe. Before then, if you could get here, you were legal. Cheap labor imported, in addition to black slaves, included Irish, many of whom were fleeing famine. Jews came to avoid pogroms and for economic opportunity. Everyone worked cheaply until they learned enough to survive and get better work, often in an enclave of countrymen, where their native languages remained in use.
The other myth, of course, is that the "Founding Fathers" were Christian. Most of them were either agnostics or Deists. They were men of the Enlightenment.
They hire people who are adept at punching emotional buttons and lulling the intellect. Karl Rove comes to mind....
It's more of that "yeah, I'll think about that after I get mine."
She did lose. ;-) Maybe there's still some hope.
Our last mayor gave away some prime downtown real estate to a developer from San Diego for a promise to bring in a movie theater that would show different movies than the chain that owns all the other theaters. The charge for this land was $1.00. Of course, as soon as the lease ran out (and it was a really short one), he sold it to the chain. The mayor is long gone - moved to another state and is working for the federal government. This was a guy who ran on a platform of being a "businessman." The city manager is still here, he was in on all the wheeling and dealing, and somehow he's gotten himself huge raises and bonuses. Who knew government employees got huge bonuses? I worked for government for years. No bonuses. We got $100 "old timer's pay" twice a year because we had topped out on our paygrade.
Ah, but that is only a loss to one candidate! You and I can both list a huge number of pollies who not only made it into office, but are still there and still treating us like we are morons. I tend to throw boots at my TV when they come forth with another howler so have virtually had to stop watching :-))
That's appalling! It can certainly top anything I could say about our local lot of space wasters. The worst example I could give you from our local Council is a coucillor who will not admit when he has a conflict of interest (and he has multiple cases). He won't excuse himself from voting in such circumstances but I have his name noted for the next round of elections.
That is not what I wrote or meant at all. Immigrants didn't go to America to make it what it is today, they went to make a better life for themselves. That urge was just as self focussed in the past as it is for the illegals who do the same thing today.
The US
I think that is a romanticised view of US history which couldn't be supported by looking at the history of the groups who got to the US and why/how they migrated or ended up in the US.
The convicts sent to America didn't have a choice and there was a significant number of them for the time during which they were transported. Africans who went to the US as slaves also had no choice. No "one nations" concept amongst either of those groups.
And the history of the US is full of very disparate groups who migrated for many reasons which had nothing to do with any attempt to make the US "one nation". A few I can mention of the top of my head are groups like the Puritans who were were escaping from what they saw as problems in the UK, the Anabaptists from the Continent migrated for much the same reason. Then there were the Irish trying to escape the potato famine and then there were huge numbers who migrated for free or cheap land, because of war etc, etc.
There is a mix of thoughts here so I'll repond to them in sections.
Yes the illegals are in the US illegally. That is not subject to argument. What I do think about is whether I would do the same thing if I were in the same situation. I know that if I was in a dire situation and just over the border was a place that all media I saw portrayed as a land of plenty, then I would also try to become an illegal. And even from the distance which I am from the US, I know what risks and dangers are frequently faced by illegals trying to get into the US. Taking such risks suggests desperation.
As to breaking the law, then none of us could ever claim to not having broken any law. We do it all the time. I hope that neither of us are diabolical law breakers but break it we do.
Sympathy is a very individual thing. I have sympathy for some illegals but not for others. I have sympathy for those illegals whose situation drives them to be illegals. I have no sympathy for those illegals who fly in and overstay their valid visas. I have no sympathy for some idiot who sues because of injuries he sustained in an illegal action. Nor do I see having sympathy for one group as being at all similar to having sympathy for some idiot. I usually have some sympathy for those who are desperate, but that sympathy is dependant on the type of desperation. I even have some sympathy for the person who tried to murder my husband but that sympathy is because of the situation he found himself in before he then tried to do in my spouse.
But you don't blame the capitalists for using these workers who they probably also exploit?
Not gunna happen. If the people on Guam can't even get real representation and only have a very limited form of citizenship then the illegals have got no chance.
Of course there is something wrong with that picture but since you have already expressed your horror of socialists and presumably all that you think that word entails, then you can't expect any help for your friend. It is changes of a socialist nature within your society which would result in him being given help. Until such changes happen, in a capitalist society then all he can hope for is help that is made in the form of charity.
But that also impacts on poor people who aren't illegals. Australia came about as a direct result of extreme poverty as the poor of Britain were driven to crime simply in order to eat. There are probably too many working poor already in the US so I don't think that is a solution.
This is an issue that crosses political party affiliation. It's very hot among the voters here, although the politicians or the local newspaper just don't seem to get it. We turned out all the state legislators (save about 16) last election state-wide, and it will probably happen again unless they wise up. Sharon
Just Franklin, Jefferson and possibly Hamilton? How about John Adams who refused to stop Sunday mail delivery and who signed, if not authored, the Treaty of Tripoli which states in Clause 11: "the Government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." There's some interesting reading in the Federalist Papers -
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Locke, though English, had a tremendous influence on all of the leaders of the new country, and was widely read and discussed. John Stuart Mill, John Jay, James Madison, Patrick Henry, Noah Webster, and other "rabble-rousers" of the times were deep-thinkers and questioners of old ways in England. Although we think of them as "fathers" - most of these men were quite young at the time of the founding of this country, and like young men everywhere, they were seeking a better way, questioning tradition, and they did a fantastic job of coming up with things like a Constitution which has served well for going on 250 years. George Washington didn't chop down the cherry tree, either. ;-)
Generally speaking, I think politics are appalling. Having sat through some city council meetings, though, I would question the sanity of anyone who would voluntarily put himself/herself through that ordeal week after week. ;-)
When our systems were founded, the thought seemed to be that these positions would be part-time, and that there would be few laws necessary for a free population. As things go, the jobs enlarged to fill the available time, and now most politicians are "career" politicians. Few positions -- the Nevada Legislature being a hold-out -- are truly part-time anymore.
In short, the system has gone awry. However, it's still the best system we have found. I would not trade it for a dictatorship, or an absolute monarchy, or even a committee. I would be in favor of sunset dates on laws, though. Too many stay on the books long after they have served their purpose. I might even be in favor of a system that would make it more difficult to enact new law. Unless it was a law I wanted, of course. ;-)
They all blather on about their respect for 'democracy' but they don't really believe in it, or understand it at all TMWOT. As you say, they just don't get it. They need to listen and hear what voters are saying but they seem to only pay attention to their advisers and since the advisers aren't elected, and are there to come up with 'fixes' to the poll results, they just try to continue to pull the wool over voter's eyes. They seem to all think that voters are stupid and can't make up their own minds (and in some cases they are right, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time).
Yes. A friend of mine constantly says that unless one is prepared to put up one's hand and do the job oneself, then we have to put up with those who are prepared to do it. There is much sense in that comment.
Yep and it does everywhere and in every system. They need a regualr overhaul.
However, it's still the best system
All systems are imperfect. I'd be reasonably happy if our government would stick to the conventions of the Westiminster system but they have lost the plot there in the time of our current Federal government.
A real advantage of that system is that minority parties can still have some influence on national policy, something that is very difficult here to accomplish without doing damage to the friendliest party. There are problems with our two-party system in that both parties move into a position that is nearly identical, eliminating real choices.
I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet, in regards to pattern storage, particularly the drafted kind that seem to be quite a mess. I've recently run across some wide, deep, sets of drawers, with very short pull out drawers. Mostly at second hand stores live st. vinnie's or Goodwill. They seem to be for storing paper of some kind, maybe something to do with architect or artists work, but it seems if you used oversized envelopes, and then stacked them in said drawers it would work. At least if the folding bothers you anywhere near as much as it bothers me.
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