Replacing bra shelf foam with horsehair?

Dear Pora,

Horsehair comes in 6-inch widths, and you can find it in just about any color at millinery sites. If you don't have one, try Hats by Leko (I'm a satisfied customer, no interest in company). But I would think that it would be scratchy, and every tiny bit of seam allowance would have to be covered in some way to avoid your skin. I don't have an alternative to offer.

Teri

Sure, and if that doesn't work, try course sandpaper, it would probably be just as comfortable. </sarcasm>

Yes yes, that's what the tricot would be for, a complete layer against the skin. I have to cover all the SAs with tricot strips anyway, so that part is okay. But I'm not sure if the horsehair will be flexible enough.

Do you guys have any other suggestions for fabrics? I suppose there are various weaves of power nets. Why do bra manufacturers use this foam stuff instead of power net for interior shelves in general? I guess I should consider stretch laces, which are soft and I assume more breathable than the foam. I like the idea of layering a soft fabric and a stronger one, both very thin with open weaves.

Pora

Power net = stretch = bounce

VERY bad idea for cup material.

Joy

Sorry but it won't work. You just can't have something like that (hair canvas) so close to the body and it will ruin the tricot aside from not being very washable. The foam is useless and merely adds more bulk and induces more sweating than anything else. The amount of foam padding needed to actually provide a framework would be ridiculous. Heck, you'd be better off with heavily quilted layered cotton for padding.... as in a stomacher. And that still would not work because of lack of boning or other support.

Someone who is a 48J needs a framework of support and a bandeau bra won't provide support. The bra will hang from the shoulders and the sides will collapse under the weight. You have to look at it from an engineering POV. Even if you made the cups out of hard plastic and if there's nothing to support the cups, they will still hang fro the shoulders and flop. An analogy would be a chain link fence supported with posts made of cardboard.

You can use the bottom of the cup as a shelf or "balcony" ONLY if the shelf is supported by an underwire or some other kind of framework. One thing you can use to your advantage with a 48J is the extra circumference. Friction does add some modicum of support and the more snug contact the bra has with the body surface, the more support you will achieve. But I still don't think that will go very far with a 48J with no underwires.

This person cannot wear underwires?

Phae

Oh, oops. I should have described this better. Here's a picture of the bra I'm hoping to copy for her:

The foam shelf I'm referring to is a 4-inch wide strip inside the lower cups, like a bandarin in a custom-fit bra. You can see it through the cup fabric in the Fitter's Comments picture. Other brands sometimes make this element an entire sling around the breast and hang it from the strap. This particular brand criss-crosses the flat foam under one breast and over the other, turning it up to become a padded strap.

This is a bit like a sports bra with the cups of a heavy Cool-Max type fabric. The frame is actually entirely of power net. (Huh?) The foam bandarin is stretchy under the breast and switches to stable above. Can a less sweaty replacement to the foam be found? Suggesting horsehair was my attempt at thinking outside the box, but maybe that wandered 'way off into the woods :-) It's been a while since I handled it.

Yes Phae, I would very much like to put her in underwires. We haven't found one to copy yet, so I might have to pattern that from scratch.

Pora

Yes, I understand what you are talking about. Most bras of any consequence are made of power-net these days but it still does not provide much of a structure for a 48J unless you make it so tight as to bind her. I do like the way the back is made on the bra. But it's still not enough for the size in question. We're talking Enell for 48J methinks. This lady needs compression, coverage and structure.

While I still don't think the bra has enough supporting structure to support a shelf that actually works, an alternative would be to run a corset channel on the underside of the cup where it would not show (it would be curved to conform with the "sling" in the picture and the channel would have to connect to the center and sides of the bra. Then you fill the channel with a spiral steel bone like this:

I think it was Goddess that made a long-line strapless bra for amply endowed women.... I have one somewhere but I vastly prefer a corset to it. Anyway, it has spiral steel bones that run diagonally over the entire cup just above the nipple IIRC. And no, incredibly, it did not show. But it was damned uncomfortable which is why I opted for corsets. I can't recall whether the bones ran from the middle out or the reverse. I lean toward the reverse.

Phae

ahh i fear this is my problem. Bra manufatures think like that. I'm a

38H. and i hate compression, coverage and structure. The words firm support make me cringe and full coverage makes me retch :-) as a result i've pretty much given up wearing bras. use duck tape when 'have' to have shape. backless, strapless and cleavage. just takes 30 to put on.

but on the original idea.... have you considered moving away from the fabric idea completely? i've done some along the bioform idea using clear silicone RTV on a papermachie mold and creating a shaped insert. Could try something similar using harder material under to be the shelf and replacing the cup foam with more bendy stuff. would have to punch holes in it for breatability but you wanted out of the box! emma

Don't worry offence taken :-)

I'm puzzled myself, but apparently it is very comfortable to wear as an everyday bra. She's not using it for exercize.

Me too. Architecturally neat.

But it's

She's already ordered a custom one! That was the first thing she did after I showed her what's available in her size. That bra changed my

*life*.

[snip]

(I'm impressed that the boning did not show in the Goddess strapless.) I understand the desire for the ultimate in support solutions, suggesting boning. But, she'll never wear such a thing. I'm shooting for "pretty good", which is much better than what she had before. I'll feel I've contributed a lot if I can simply equal the support of the foam while reducing weight and heat. That's proving to be a very big challenge! I might just visit the sports fabric store in Berkeley and browse the technical stuff for inspiration.

Pora

Oh, what's that? How firm does it get? And is it flexible when you're done or pretty hard?

on a papermachie mold and creating a shaped insert.

This is a very interesting idea. I have never seen a bioform in person though I've heard about it. (Does anyone have an old spare they could loan me for week or two?)

I'm sorry to hear that the bra industry failed you. Would you mind telling me what you would have wanted in a bra?

Pora

You asked for alternatives. I merely gave you one since you didn't mention any restrictions.

Damn! I wish I hadn't binned mine when they acquired holes (and one broke when Alan trod on it!) You could have had them for nowt to dissect and play with.

Bit like wearing plate armour, really. Dead comfy when they fitted, but you did feel like a twin-hulled ship sailing into port! Even with holes in the plastic armature they were rather warm...

.

exactamundo!

during exersise maybe but the rest of the time? and Bounce painful? really? not for me.Maybe that's the issue then

because one can not live on t-shirts alone! generally i live in spagetti strap tops but hatchings, matching, dispatchings and job interviews require a little mre formality. BTW many studies have shown that there's absolutely no link between age related sagging and bra wear. they'll drop whatever you do.

umm that was all a bit ranty but i would like to add that i was in a bad mood this afternoon! no offence intended also i would actually like to find a bra that fits comfortably i've just never found it hence slight ****ed off ness:-). closest i've got is comfort without fit. emma

This comment is not directed to anyone in particular, just to the thread in general....

It seems to me that this discussion/rant/argument is a very old one... Fuller figured women do need more support than the less well endowed, but unfortunately these ladies are very sadly *underserved* by the RTW lingerie companies...

This is another example of the industry taking a pattern for something that works fine in smaller sizes, and enlarging and enlarging, without taking additonal factors into account, and changing their patterns accordingly. So, the larger busted ladies tend to be uncomfortable, and have bras that usually do not fit particularly well. This is a pretty sad state of affairs no matter how you look at it...

I do not make lingerie myself, but there is a sweet lady in Australia who is a real crackerjack at making/designing bras for overly-endowed customers... I will have to see if I can locate her, she may have some suggestions from her experiences...

me

Aw, sh!t. That's supposed to say "NO offense taken..." What kind of brain fart was that?

I'm reconsidering your suggestion about boning in cups. Can't talk much right now, but I think I've got an elegant idea sprouting in my head. Something along the lines of using reinforced vertical flat-felled-type seams in a thinner shelf to create more rigidity. Like the fan-shaped boning of victorian corsets?

Just came back from visiting 48J. Got a good look at the stretchy bra on her and have rejected the whole project. Exactly as you described, the powernet frame was nowhere near her body and her breasts were drooping most unsatisfactorily.

Back to the drawing board.

Pora

Pora, have you seen Bravissimo,

They cater specifically for ladies to whom the Bosom Fairy has been generous and, although they don't go up to a size 48J, they do at least photograph their bras on generously-endowed women.

I find Freya bras very comfortable, particularly FY41 and FY14. You can't see the seam in the lower cup of FY14, but it's in the same place as FY41. I reckon you could pare down the top of the cup of FY14 to give a much more revealing bra without loosing support.

On the subject of fitting: like shoes, every manufacturer has a different idea of sizes. I've been told that La Senza's fitting policy is to sell a bra, any bra, rather than loose the sale, and their fitters are told that if they get the largest cup in a band size and it's too small, they should just keep going up a band size until they find one the fits the cup even though the wearer can practically turn round in it. I know this is also true of Victoria's Secret in the US: my skinny UK-size-10/US-size-6 DD was told she needs a 36D there. Ridiculous! Bravissimo put her in a 30E and it fits perfectly.

I like Bravissimo (can you tell?) and if there's a shop near you I suggest going to have a bra fitted. You may find that your band size drops significantly.

I just had a look at the larger sizes at

and, hmm, they are rather... err... functional, aren't they?

Underwires: just thinking laterally, has anyone tried cutting underwires from flexible plastic such as milk cartons or slightly heavier? It's easy to cut and you could smooth it with sandpaper. If you put the flat side against the body it would curve around the body but not droop. If you use something like a Flexicurve you could make custom-fitted underwires that replicate the shape of the underneath of the breast perfectly by actually tucking the Flexicurve in place and removing it without changing the shape, and a slightly tear-drop shape would give a rounded end under the arm to give more support and less inclination to poke.

Sally