The best jacket I ever had was made with Ventile though I didn't know this when I had it. (it was worn out through years of use but was still waterproof, though decrepid, when it went in the bin). I decided to make a new one myself and my plan is to dissassemble an old showerproof jacket and make a pattern for a double skin ventile mountain jacket with outer side pockets, inner map pocket and hood. Then make a test sample out of cheap material before investing in the Ventile. It's a bit ambitious because my experience with sewing is limited to curtains (they came out well) and sails. It's a project for the satisfaction of making as well as for an excellent bit of gear (if I should be so lucky). My main concern, right now, is about sewing. Presumably cotton. What size? type? needle? sewing pattern? tightness? etc? My lack of knowledge of this is total - it didn't matter with curtains. Any other comment, advice, experiences, etc would be welcome.
Curtains teach you a very good lesson and give you plenty of practice sewing straight seams.
For Ventile I'd use a size 80 Jeans/Sharp needle. Standard cotton sewing thread like Sylco will do fine. And as for thread tension: test and adjust if needed.
It does, you know! :) Curtain fabric is quite tough and thick. You get better results using a size 90 jeans needle than a standard universal size 80.
Ventile is only wind proof, not waterproof, though the tight weave makes it naturally shower proof. If it gets really wet, it gets VERY heavy. You'll need to proof it for real rain wear. You could try one of the Nikwax products.
Do you have a source for your fabric? If not, I know Point North have it in navy.
Ventile is made from densely woven fine cotton fibres.
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achieves waterproofness by the natural swelling of the fibres on absorbing a little water. I have observed others in what they said was Ventile getting wet in serious rain, but can't vouch for the state or authenticity of the fabric. Contrary to what Kate said, you don't proof Ventile, it would inhibit the "Ventile Action". What I would like to know is how the seams of a Ventile jacket are sealed, to stop water getting in through the stitch holes. Can you remember if your old Ventile jacket had tapes stuck along the seams? Perhaps a good design would avoid seams along the top of the shoulder and arm - Raglan sleeves, isn't it?
OK, thinking about that I can see how that would be. However, the only Ventile garment I was ever party to leaked badly through the fabric. I thought proofing it might have helped... Mind you, I am talking over 30 years ago here, when I used to run around with the Outdoor Ed types (before you came on the scene, dearest!), so I may be miss-remembering what the solution was. I know that many of the early breathable coated fabrics were coming in then and replacing things like Ventile because they were lighter, they stayed light when wet, and they were a LOT easier to look after as well as being better at the weather proofing. All my mountain-hungry pals were replacing Ventile stuff with the new stuffs as soon as they could afford to do so.
Ventile is also vulnerable to abrasion damage: once the surface gets rubbed (by back pack straps and just wearing), the fabric no longer works as well as the undamaged areas, and water leaks through the fabric. Abrasion damage can happen from the inside as well as from the outside.
Yes, raglan sleeves: a seam either side of the shoulder sloping in to the neck from the armsye.
I've no idea how you might seal the seams without interfering with the swelling=waterproofing action of the fabric. The one I worked on did not have any sealing as far as I can remember. I do know it's a pig to sew: the tightness of the weave means you need a sharp/jeans needle, but it's too tough for a size 60 or 70, and an 80 will definitely leave needle holes that will not be fully filled with the thread. The only thing I can think of is using a felled seam and hoping the multiple layers give enough depth and thread coverage for it not to be a problem.
I've made bags from Ventile, as well as mending a couple of jackets: the bags were intended to keep things clean and dust free, but never intended to keep them dry! They were packed in waterproof bags.
There's a lot more information about Ventile here:
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note that while this site tells you that Ventile is used for RAF aircrew immersion suits, the one my father wore in the 70's to keep him dry and warm should he ever ditch his Phantom, and the one he wore while navigating the Canberra both before and after the phantom days, was *rubber coated* on the inside! And also, while the site shows firemen in Ventile garments, the firemen I have known claimed this is for the inherent lack of flammability rather than the waterproofing, and they wear just as much wool for the same reason. It *is* lovely fabric. It feels and smells wonderful, and it is great to work with, so long as you use really SHARP scissors for cutting it - and sharpen them during cutting! - and new sharp needles. I gave up trying to pin it: waaaaay to tough on the fingers! Don't try to sew the commercial or military grades with a light weight domestic sewing machine.
Nah - we don't spat! Occasionally nibble corners off each other, but after 24 years, we don't fall out over this stuff. I'd just mis-remembered summat. :)
Kate and Alan, I'm sorry to be so slow in responding to the great help you've given me. I've a lot of things going on here right now. You've given me a lot to think about and follow up on. I have some old photos in the attic (when I can find them) which might give an idea of the seams. I'll take on you're idea of keeping them off the horizontal surfaces, tops of sleeves, etc, and I've thought of keeping them vertical as far as possible, join inner and outer layers only at the jacket edges, maybe offset the inner and outer seams. Also; maybe using the thinnest thread and needle possible in critical areas and even sew these by hand if that helps to avoid breaking fibres. (A comment on these things would be welcome) I'd thought that using doubled seams would be normal but I looked at various jackets I have, and he method used is to make a single stitch to produce a 'T' shaped joint and then close up the to loose edges and fold it down and tape over it. The tape seemed pretty useless in that it adhered to the 'waste' material but not to the body of the jacket and so, being useless. Others, being light plastic used only for shower protection in warm countries, had the seams heat sealed with a film of plastic (great seams but not waterproof jackets). I wonder if something like thin, flexible nail polish could be brushed inside the outer layer.
I'm concerned about Kate's experience with leaky Ventile. The makers don't claim it waterproof but claim it 'weatherproof' when used in double layer. Others claim it waterproof in double layer. My old jacket might not have been completely waterproof, although my memory of it was that the inside never got wet, or even damp. However I may not have given it a really vigourous test. 'Fell wandering' was my way and, if it was pouring down all day, I was more likely to be found in the bar of Old Dungeon Ghyll after doing a circuit of Stickle Tarn rather than pounding around the Crinkle Crags circuit and over Bowfell, knocking the nails out of my boots. A walk up the valley from or to Ambleside was considered to be the best way to spend a really wet day. Maybe Ventile is horrible after 8 hours over
2000 feet in a September gale and I just never got around to testing it? Maybe it doesn't matter (for me, anyway)?
And, maybe that solves the problem. Thanks for the good ideas and helping me develop my own. If you are so good as to give me specifics how to sew the best seams, then I'll really appreciate it. rgds, John C
Same here! I have a wedding project to complete, several cotton frocks for a friend, and am dog0sitting! And this is a QUIET week!
Hand sewing may not give any better a finish, and is hell on the hands with Ventile. The close, dense weave and fine fibres mean that shoving any kind of needle through by hand is a Herculean labour.
Not sure what you mean here... Do you mean a flat seam with tape applied to the seam allowances only on the inside? That would certainly cover the gaps between the stitches effectively, while not having the extra rows of stitches penetrating the outer shell.
No. Not on a cotton fabric. Fray-Check is a nylon compound for sealing the cut edges of fabric: it *might* also work for this, but is a damned expensive way to go! You can buy liquid seam sealants for stitched seams on coated fabrics, which work well. I know of nothing that will do the same on cotton. wax (mentioned in another post) works for a day or two, but wears away and washes out when the garment is washed: then you cannot get at the insides of the seams to re-apply it, so it shows if you apply it to the outside! :(
The guys I was playing with in those days were doing a 3 year teacher's certificate (same teaching qualification I have) or a BEd, and spending days and whole weeks out on the fells in all weathers. They were also sailing, canoing, skiing in winter... They ended up teaching these activities. Waterproof/weatherproof clothing needed to be light weight, durable, and, above all, effective. Ventile didn't stand up to the wear these fellas (and a few lasses) gave their kit, and wasn't sufficiently waterproof to keep them warm and dry. Think the kind of conditions where the Mountain Rescue are called out! This is what these fellas did for fun as well as work - quite a few were members of the MR squads. The course attracted a higher proportion of mature students than any other I know. We had ex army and RAF PTI's, ex coppers, ski instructors, a lad who used to spend his summers as a mountain guide in the Pyrenese, and as a ski instructor there in the winter... Not yer average summer ramblers! A 12 hr Wainwright hike was an afternoon dog-walking stroll for them. 3 of them made a circumnavigation of Ireland in kayaks one summer. I made a pile of kit for that expedition
- all on this machine:
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They did it entirely without land support. EVERYTHING had to fit in the boats, from tents to cash! They ate a lot of fish they caught on their daily travels. Mad as a bag of ferrets, the whole crowd, but a LOT of fun! My first trip out with them was in October, to Glencoe, where it rained. We failed to freeze or get wet, except on our way to the pub! Another trip was in February, to the Lake District, in search of snow.. . After a full day doing ice techniques and 'poly-bagging', I got back to camp with hypothermia! Mind you, I only weighed 8 stone in those days: no padding at all! They made me drink a foul concoction of condensed milk and cocoa, and took me to the pub to warm up and thaw out, where they fed me hot chocolate in front of the fire, and hot home made soup, and then tucked me into my sleeping bag (a Black's Icelandic that I got cheap coz the label fell off!) wrapped also in a duvet jacket and 3 hot water bottles! The other girls were cold all night, but I was toasty, and up to make scrambled eggs and bacon butties, and a gallon or two of tea for 15 at eight the following morning. Nice blokes, all of them.
I think you might find that to be the case! On the other hand, for more normal wear it might be more comfortable and quieter than a three-layer Gortex (DH's preferred shell for foul weather walking, along with over trousers I made for him).
Take a look here at the felled seam:
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would work for your major outer seams, and you could do the lining with a serged/overlocked seam, or a straight seam zigzagged together, thus:
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