Replacing bra shelf foam with horsehair?

Dear Pora,

Horsehair comes in 6-inch widths, and you can find it in just about any color at millinery sites. If you don't have one, try Hats by Leko (I'm a satisfied customer, no interest in company). But I would think that it would be scratchy, and every tiny bit of seam allowance would have to be covered in some way to avoid your skin. I don't have an alternative to offer.

Teri

Sure, and if that doesn't work, try course sandpaper, it would probably be just as comfortable.

Yes yes, that's what the tricot would be for, a complete layer against the skin. I have to cover all the SAs with tricot strips anyway, so that part is okay. But I'm not sure if the horsehair will be flexible enough.

Do you guys have any other suggestions for fabrics? I suppose there are various weaves of power nets. Why do bra manufacturers use this foam stuff instead of power net for interior shelves in general? I guess I should consider stretch laces, which are soft and I assume more breathable than the foam. I like the idea of layering a soft fabric and a stronger one, both very thin with open weaves.

Pora

Power net = stretch = bounce

VERY bad idea for cup material.

Joy

Sorry but it won't work. You just can't have something like that (hair canvas) so close to the body and it will ruin the tricot aside from not being very washable. The foam is useless and merely adds more bulk and induces more sweating than anything else. The amount of foam padding needed to actually provide a framework would be ridiculous. Heck, you'd be better off with heavily quilted layered cotton for padding.... as in a stomacher. And that still would not work because of lack of boning or other support.

Someone who is a 48J needs a framework of support and a bandeau bra won't provide support. The bra will hang from the shoulders and the sides will collapse under the weight. You have to look at it from an engineering POV. Even if you made the cups out of hard plastic and if there's nothing to support the cups, they will still hang fro the shoulders and flop. An analogy would be a chain link fence supported with posts made of cardboard.

You can use the bottom of the cup as a shelf or "balcony" ONLY if the shelf is supported by an underwire or some other kind of framework. One thing you can use to your advantage with a 48J is the extra circumference. Friction does add some modicum of support and the more snug contact the bra has with the body surface, the more support you will achieve. But I still don't think that will go very far with a 48J with no underwires.

This person cannot wear underwires?

Phae

Oh, oops. I should have described this better. Here's a picture of the bra I'm hoping to copy for her:

The foam shelf I'm referring to is a 4-inch wide strip inside the lower cups, like a bandarin in a custom-fit bra. You can see it through the cup fabric in the Fitter's Comments picture. Other brands sometimes make this element an entire sling around the breast and hang it from the strap. This particular brand criss-crosses the flat foam under one breast and over the other, turning it up to become a padded strap.

This is a bit like a sports bra with the cups of a heavy Cool-Max type fabric. The frame is actually entirely of power net. (Huh?) The foam bandarin is stretchy under the breast and switches to stable above. Can a less sweaty replacement to the foam be found? Suggesting horsehair was my attempt at thinking outside the box, but maybe that wandered 'way off into the woods :-) It's been a while since I handled it.

Yes Phae, I would very much like to put her in underwires. We haven't found one to copy yet, so I might have to pattern that from scratch.

Pora

Yes, I understand what you are talking about. Most bras of any consequence are made of power-net these days but it still does not provide much of a structure for a 48J unless you make it so tight as to bind her. I do like the way the back is made on the bra. But it's still not enough for the size in question. We're talking Enell for 48J methinks. This lady needs compression, coverage and structure.

While I still don't think the bra has enough supporting structure to support a shelf that actually works, an alternative would be to run a corset channel on the underside of the cup where it would not show (it would be curved to conform with the "sling" in the picture and the channel would have to connect to the center and sides of the bra. Then you fill the channel with a spiral steel bone like this:

I think it was Goddess that made a long-line strapless bra for amply endowed women.... I have one somewhere but I vastly prefer a corset to it. Anyway, it has spiral steel bones that run diagonally over the entire cup just above the nipple IIRC. And no, incredibly, it did not show. But it was damned uncomfortable which is why I opted for corsets. I can't recall whether the bones ran from the middle out or the reverse. I lean toward the reverse.

Phae

ahh i fear this is my problem. Bra manufatures think like that. I'm a

38H. and i hate compression, coverage and structure. The words firm support make me cringe and full coverage makes me retch :-) as a result i've pretty much given up wearing bras. use duck tape when 'have' to have shape. backless, strapless and cleavage. just takes 30 to put on.

but on the original idea.... have you considered moving away from the fabric idea completely? i've done some along the bioform idea using clear silicone RTV on a papermachie mold and creating a shaped insert. Could try something similar using harder material under to be the shelf and replacing the cup foam with more bendy stuff. would have to punch holes in it for breatability but you wanted out of the box! emma

Don't worry offence taken :-)

I'm puzzled myself, but apparently it is very comfortable to wear as an everyday bra. She's not using it for exercize.

Me too. Architecturally neat.

But it's

She's already ordered a custom one! That was the first thing she did after I showed her what's available in her size. That bra changed my

*life*.

[snip]

(I'm impressed that the boning did not show in the Goddess strapless.) I understand the desire for the ultimate in support solutions, suggesting boning. But, she'll never wear such a thing. I'm shooting for "pretty good", which is much better than what she had before. I'll feel I've contributed a lot if I can simply equal the support of the foam while reducing weight and heat. That's proving to be a very big challenge! I might just visit the sports fabric store in Berkeley and browse the technical stuff for inspiration.

Pora

Oh, what's that? How firm does it get? And is it flexible when you're done or pretty hard?

on a papermachie mold and creating a shaped insert.

This is a very interesting idea. I have never seen a bioform in person though I've heard about it. (Does anyone have an old spare they could loan me for week or two?)

I'm sorry to hear that the bra industry failed you. Would you mind telling me what you would have wanted in a bra?

Pora

You asked for alternatives. I merely gave you one since you didn't mention any restrictions.

as hard or as firm as you want. just a matter of playing with the ingredients! it's all just chemistry:-) i did mine with two bits kinda like a diy bioform(more below). used hard plasic for a sort of underwire but wider and with sides and with softer stuff.for cups. but could easily have the two blended together.

if i could find mine i'd give you it but most of my stuff's in storage at the moment. i'll see if i can locate it but could be several months!

I did see the program on it and it was a good idea, in principle! just went wrong in practice, well for me anyway. the idea i think was to replace the underwire with something softer to soothe our poor abused flesh. however in order to regain the support they had to make the bit wider, which would have been ok but they made the central core of the inset very hard and the rest of it quite hard. making the whole thing very firm. but some women love it. I did go get fitted for mine (more on that later) and the woman said that the sizing on them was very different and most people didn't get on with them. but all that's my biased opinion after aying =A330+ for it and finding that it was agony after 2 hours! However i do appluad them for trying do do something about the dark ages design of bras in general

might bebetter! this next link is only tenuously connected but it's infamous in certain circles (i first read it when i was 17) what really narks me off about the bra industry is many fold so here comes a rant....:-)

60% of woman wear the wrong size. why? cause it's so damm difficult to get the right one! I've done what you're supposed to do and i have a drawerfull of bras that i was fitted for, was told were perfect and coughed up large cash for only to find that after a few hous they drew blood. I once did a test on fitting and i went from one end of princes street(lived in edinburgh at the time) to the other and got measred in every store that sold bras. so that's 4 department stores, la senza, M&S, C&A, BHS, Evans. about 10. all gave me different results. Given that in general in my size one has to buy by mail order and can't try on you might as be sticking a pin.

there's an implicit assumption that once you get over a E cup you want to hide them, squish them down and make sure they never move. i have a bust and there a times i would like to flaunt it. I want the same options someone with a C cup would have. Sometimes i want cleavage, sometimes i want strapless (ever seem these above a G?) I would like a sports bra (last look on various web sites found ONE in a H at around =A330). I'd like nice fabrics (although Evans did a silk range a few years back- if only they could have made them fit!) and i'd like to pay a sensible price for them. I resent the fact that because i have a bust i can't jsut go to tesco and pick up a pack of 2 for a =A35 like my mum does. The only time i even think of my self as having a large bust is when i try to find bras. i'm used to not wearing one at all and don't feel that i need support! i'm not looking for this 'lift separate and imprision' sort of thing. They're supposed to move! i've stopped going in to lingerie departements mostly cause i know i'll see all these lovely things that only go up to a C. Sigh

However there's a slightly more phiosopical arguemnt too. Given than roughly 50% of the population need/feel they have too wear these torture devices you'd think someone would have come up with a better design. one that wasn't so sensitive to people's individual quirks, or alternatively taken it the other way and made to measure bras were available on every high street, like glasses. (and it would mean sewers could get the bits more easily)

umm that was a bit of a rant... ooops. maybe i'm not typical and all women over an E/F do want that 'might as well wear a corset' feeling. lol who knows. anyway it's hardly your fault that the bra industy makes money out of those of us who keep buying the stuff they make cause there's nothing better! :-) emma

Damn! I wish I hadn't binned mine when they acquired holes (and one broke when Alan trod on it!) You could have had them for nowt to dissect and play with.

Bit like wearing plate armour, really. Dead comfy when they fitted, but you did feel like a twin-hulled ship sailing into port! Even with holes in the plastic armature they were rather warm...

.

exactamundo!

Minimizing and preventing unnecessary & painful bounce during exercise is perhaps a more accurate description. Those who don't wish to do this during exercise are the exception, not the rule. As for regular wear, I'm convinced that the minimizer was invented so that more amply endowed women could fit into RTW a bit more easily w/o going up too many sizes. Yes, it seems stupid to me but for women who cannot sew and cannot afford to have their clothes custom made, I imagine this solution, half-assed and production line driven though it is, is somewhat welcome.

Welcome to the real, market-driven world.

Then what in the pit of doom are you complaining about and why are you even in a such a snit about bras if you don't need or like them? Get yourself some t-shirts and you can flaunt them until you start catching them in your jeans zipper.

during exersise maybe but the rest of the time? and Bounce painful? really? not for me.Maybe that's the issue then

because one can not live on t-shirts alone! generally i live in spagetti strap tops but hatchings, matching, dispatchings and job interviews require a little mre formality. BTW many studies have shown that there's absolutely no link between age related sagging and bra wear. they'll drop whatever you do.

This lady needs compression, coverage and structure.

I, too, have a generous bust, but the only time I want compression is when my boobs are on the mammogram shelf, and I don't need full coverage. Bosoms on the half-shell are quite all right for me in underwear, my outergarments will cover my assets and maintain my modesty, thank you. As far as structure is concerned, what I need is some REAL engineering and cantileverage to give me the support I need.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans.

umm that was all a bit ranty but i would like to add that i was in a bad mood this afternoon! no offence intended also i would actually like to find a bra that fits comfortably i've just never found it hence slight ****ed off ness:-). closest i've got is comfort without fit. emma

Then it's a good thing my *solicited* opinion was given to Pora regarding her customer--- not you. When we say that a bra gives uplift, we obviously don't mean the vertical thrust needed to hoist a rocket from a launch pad into outer space. By the same token, when we say that any bra that wraps around the body applies compression, we surely do not mean the exaggerated and often painful constriction necessary for radiography--- unless, of course, it is one's intention to hyperbolize.

Phae