An acronym free musing about hired turners. L&S(long and silly)

Well, it's not a perfect world. This is a very common practice. I think part of the answer hinges on who designs the piece. If "Mr. Wonderful" designs the piece and then hands it off to someone else to - I'm going to use the word 'manufacture'. - then I suppose it could be deemed a "Mr. Wonderful Original."

If, however, Mr. Wonderful employs a factory full of turners slamming out bowls, then it ceases to be "art" and becomes a factory, and Mr. Wonderful can call them whatever he wants, but the public will catch on soon enough when the price drops to a Wal-Mart level.

Just my two cents....

The way things have been done for centuries in the arts and the crafts which aspire to art-range pricing. It's the master's finishing touch that counts. The donkeys do the rough work.

You wouldn't expect the master to hit the woods and do the logging, would you? Just a case of where you draw the line....

The glasswork of Dale Chihuly (sp?) comes to mind. He's been unable to do hands-on glass work for decades and has skilled craftspeople produce the glass pieces under his direct instruction.

Completely and Unequivically Unethical! (CUU)

And Beyond The Pale! (BTP)

But, IIRC, it is no secret that his works are created by Teams.

If the 'finishing touch' is putting on the finish or signing the piece, the line has been set back so far the signature might as well read "Made in China".

Probably truer words were never spoken on this subject.

As far as Ellsworth goes, you and Owen are probably right on that one, I just had not heard it. I am wondering if Ellsworth is worried that he will be left behind since he is not viewed as an innovative artist, but more of a one note samba. When is the last time he revealed an all new, never before seen totally original work?

But in my view, as Shakespeare said (see how >> I >all

Sometimes we tend to think of of folks as 'one noters' because all we ever see published is the 'one note'. I used to think Sam Maloof was a 'rocking chair note' until I saw his other work. WOW!

I don't think he 'stole' it. IIRC, he has publicly said that he doesn't understand why people associate his name with it.

I don't think Ellsworth does this.

I do like "Celtic". :o)

How many? Some of the straight bowl guys can crank out a Lot. And fools and their money are soon parted (Barnum?).

:o) Had a few of these myself. Not with grinds, but with software. Hardware not ready for the Big Idea. Soon as the hardware is available somebody else comes out with My Big Idea. :o(

Arch, this thread has elevated RCW to a new level. Thanks for starting it.

understand why people associate his name with it.

'Tis true. I guess for woodturners, we oughta lop off an arm or something and then have a good excuse for having our own Team. (Reminds me of the Pythons and Life of Brian... or was it Jabberwocky?)

Only Python arm lopping I remember was 'Monty Python and the Holy Grail'. Went looking to make sure the title was correct and found the Official site where the shopping link told me to "buy something or piss off".

Chihuly is minus an eye, right?

Except to the chump who's willing to pay for that signature. That's what the "art" buyer's after. Sure could get a Dorito bowl somewhere else a lot cheaper.

Oh well, what the heck.

Liam O'Neill is the individual I first saw identified with the practice of grinding back the ears of the "new" ground-flute gouges. Lots of folks were trying to make this new cheap substitute for the long and strong gouge more useful. See the interview at

Not surprisingly, they began with the same technique employed with its predecessor to make it less grabby inside an opening - they took the edges off. I suppose we can excuse the puffery of the salesman who claims he discovered the way to take the thrust of turning on the rest versus the turner, and note he is absolutely right that smaller diameter cylindrical gouges work better with steeper edges. My four bowl gouges follow that principle, though I must admit, until today I'd never seen it articulated by anyone else. I have been chided, mocked and even insulted by a bunch of folks for saying so, however. Messenger versus message attitude. Same one that makes an issue over whether a rose would really smell as sweet if it were called a turnip.

Thanks to each of you for your thoughtful points and counterpoints to my can opener. I enjoy a good narrative thread as much as looking at another picture of another bowl. I do enjoy looking at other's turnings, but "mine eyes" instead of "seeing the glory" sometimes just get glazed over.

As Lobby pointed out, this topic is _not about plagiary and I hadn't seen it discussed in any depth elsewhere, but I don't 'forum hop' much anymore and could have missed the discussions.

I should have been more specific about scale, art form and time frame. I meant small, limited to turned wood in our time. I wasn't considering the work that is _necessarily done by hired workmen for artists such as Wright's Prairie houses, Calder's huge Mobiles, or the transient Whatever of Christo and his wife. Nor was I thinking about the long ago when old Adam plagiarized the shape of an apple.

p.s. Thanks Leo for choosing: "elevate" instead of "diminsh". :) (icon intended)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

This is the point at which an "arteest" becomes a "house," on his way to a "style," and perhaps the oft-dreamed-of-seldom-achieved "genre."

Seems it was a mid-evil scene in which a guy was begging for money and kept lopping off body parts to generate more sympathy. I've not seen Holy Grail through and through so that's why I was thinking it was Jabberwocky.

Yes, I believe that's right.

Well, one collection of rambling thoughts deserve another...

Does the journeyman count as an apprentice? Could that journeyman end up being so talented that he/she starts a studio and becomes well-known? Does that affect our appraisal of this situation?

Does creating jobs for others where there might be none count as a good thing? Would this journeyman otherwise be employed as a turner, doing something he loves and earning money, or would he instead be an accountant or burger flipper? Is his life enhanced by his employment as a journeyman turner?

Does Martha Stewart make all the products that bear her name? Does she let the child labor that does the manufacturing in other countries sign the work too? Did she sign the license plates she made in jail, despite the fact that she didn't smelt her own ore?

Is the buying public for such works of art the gourmet-coffee-quaffing, Lexus-driving, ultra-fashinable set of our country? Do they deserve to pay through the nose for this kind of art? Would it be ethical to use dried turds in a layer of a bowl and call it "biologically prepared vegetable fiber" and then sell it to these people for an extra $2000?

Given the choice, would you rather be A) An impoverished and fairly unknown turner who produces nice works of art which sell for a modest price and are wholly self-produced, or B) A well-off turner who uses a few people to produce like-quality works of art which you only do about 10% of the work on? Which one puts better food on the table? Would you be able to afford that nice Powermatic/Vicmarc? Better tools? A bigger, nicer, and safer workshop? A better spouse? :)

We live in a world where star power is worth an awful lot, and name dropping is a big deal. "Oh yes, that is an actual so-and-so turning."

I write and record music, and burn my own cds of the albums I make. I'm sure that your favorite cd by your favorite artist was not actually manufactured by that artist. Does that make my cd better? Does that makeyou want to give me lots of money? Please?

All in fun and contemplation, no insult or slight intended.

Mark Pollock Amatuer woodturner, musician, and fencer.

"Mr. Moose" raises a lot of very interesting questions, to which I will provide a simple but profound answer:

Things are the way they are because that's the way they are.