Messing around with the LDD method

Hello all,

I decided to try out the LDD method, and while the jury's still out on the final result, I did a little research to try and figure out just how and why it might work.

A quick Google search turned up several high school science experiments that used LDD in a 20:1 to 10:1 (Water:LDD) solution to break the cell membranes of both human cheek cells and onion cells. PBS's NOVA referred to this as "lysing" in their explaination of the experiment. The broken cells released their contents into the solution so that the DNA could be extracted and spooled for genetic typing.

Further searching showed that there is a single chemical that can be used for the same purpose, which I would expect is one of the ingredients of LDD-

Sodium Laurylsulfate ( C12H25NaO4S ) AKA: n-Dodecylsulfate Sodium Salt CAS no: 151-21-3

Since the experiment in question worked with both onions and cheek cells, it is fairly likely that this salt is able to break open not only animal cells with a fatty membrane, but the sturdier plant cell walls as well. Once the walls are split, the contents are released and the water can be pulled out of the wood (somehow, that's how- I'm a steelworker, not a chemist!)

Like I said above, I tried the LDD method, but I really did not enjoy the sloppy slurry that came off the piece for the first several cuts. I'm going to blame that on the glycerine in the soap, just for the heck of it. If this is the chemical that does the job of preventing wet wood from cracking, it may be a good deal cleaner and less expensive than buying large containers of dishwashing detergent. If anyone feels inclined to experiment with it a bit, there are a few questions that obviously need to be answered.

First, does it work at all with the Sodium Laurylsulfate, and if so, at what solution? It's a safe bet that if this is indeed an ingredient in LDD (I couldn't find an ingredient list on the bottle) it is severely diluted in the final solution, so a lot less than a

50/50 mixture should be needed. The DNA experiements called for a 10% solution when using the chemical above.

Second, If the method does work- how does splitting the cell walls throughout the wood affect the finished product? While it may prevent cracking, It seems rather unlikely that it can eliminate shrinking and warping. It may just be a nice fast way to dry out wet wood- or it may cause cells to retain their shape because the water is able to leave the cell through a crack, rather than collapsing due to the loss of turgor pressure.

Third, how is water pulled out of the cells and into the solution? In the experiments, a bit of salt was added to the mixture (1 teaspoon salt to 1 cup of water, and 20 drops of the 10% Sodium Laurylsulfate solution), but I'm not entirely sure if making the solution salty would dessicate the wood. I know that salt can trap water, but if it's already dissolved in the water, who's to say it isn't already loaded with all the water it can handle?

Fourth, does a guy need to wear gloves when handling the piece to prevent some nasty dermatitis? It's also a good bet that LDD contains moisturizers to protect your hands.

Fifth, how does a solution like this affect various finishes- or does it not affect them at all?

And Sixth, is it possible to buy this chemical without a special license?

Of course, all of this may be just a bunch of hoodoo, but if there is something actually going on, it may be very useful to all the turners here if the chemical reactions can be isolated, explained and replicated. If any of you are interested in biological chemistry and can figure this out, let the rest of us know- or maybe whip up a bunch and sell it on your website or something. I'll probably mess with it a bit, but I've got too many other things to do, and not enough time to do them all!

Anyhow, thought I'd share.

Reply to
Prometheus
Loading thread data ...

Well, we put the stuff in our mouths by way of toothpaste, wash our bodies and hair with it. And according to the link below costs $12.60 a gallon:

Reply to
Owen Lowe

So why did you stop using it?

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

Of course there are some who believe it's the hydroxyl group that works the "magic" you attribute to the sulfate ion.

Oh yes, the only living cells in a tree are _not_ wood.

Just in case you were interested in doing a little research....

Reply to
George

Hello there, Prometheus, could you use some colored dye in there with it next time, and report back to all of us, of how far al this chemical hocus-pocus penetrates the wood, and rips apart the cells to release the water ??? I am sure many inquiring minds like to know

Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo

Prometheus wrote:

Reply to
Leo Van Der Loo

Ah, you must have had a better search string than I, I couldn't find a vendor.

>
Reply to
Prometheus

It could be the artificial coloring in the LDD, for all I know. I just figured it'd be a good conversation.

That's true, but if the chemical cracks the xylem, then it might stop them from collapsing.

Well, of course. But it's a slow process.

Reply to
Prometheus

That's not a terrible idea, either- but I get the feeling this has all been hashed out before. FWIW, the birch I tried it on was signifigantly more wet in the center than it was before I soaked it. At least the water got in, if not the chemicals. I'll try some dye, just to satisfy my own curiousity.

It may be hocus-pocus, but the test piece did not crack, and the control piece did- so something is happening.

Reply to
Prometheus

The point is, your "reasoning" is as strange as the alcohol folks at the outset. If it lyses cells with cytoplasm, it must affect empty cells?

And now you hypothesise that if it destroys existing structure it will keep it from collapsing ? A couple billion years of trial and accidental success, and now you think what holds a sequoia aloft can be improved by destroying its structure?

I think you'll have fun, but you might want to temper your research with deductive rather than inductive reasoning.

Beware the halo effect.

Reply to
George

Prometheus: A noble and worthwhile thought and sharing, but be prepared to suffer the fate of your namesake. The LDD topic arouses all sorts of reactions from turners. We have speculated on this before and you bring up some interesting points, but "we" decided that it would take a scientific investigation into the actual effects of LDD on wood. The cost is prohibitive. Perhaps some scientist can obtain a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts to pursue this. After all, if they can support artists who produce such things as "Piss Jesus," a few million for a study that might produce evidence of global warming in an LDD solution should be a snap!. In the meantime, take good care of your liver! *G*

Leif

Reply to
Leif Thorvaldson

Points well taken- as I stated in the original message, I'm just an amateur with little or no knowledge of organic chemestry. If I knew all this stuff, I probably wouldn't be fabricating for a living! :)

Not sure what you mean... but I'll watch out for it if you care to elaborate. If you mean not taking some hit-or-miss hypotheses to heart, I imagine I'll be alright on that score. I just like wonder about things.

Reply to
Prometheus

Nonsense! There are all sorts of experiments that can be done on the cheap- it's wood, not nitroglycerine!

:)

Reply to
Prometheus

Using a primary research tool:

formatting link
of the definitions apply : Because the "discovery" was yours, you give it magical properties. Assuming, for instance that detergent breaks down wood structure because it ruptures living cells. The halo has enveloped a presumption.

Because you have formulated an hypothesis, you tend to find only for that hypothesis. Experimental bias.

Learn about wood first, and you'll find it much easier to deal with it.

formatting link

Reply to
George

I agree. The first step is just to identify and test the individual chemical compounds in LDD one at a time and see if one produces the desired results. If not, then begin combining them in pairs. It is so simple, I'm surprised one of the LDD fans haven't tried this already. Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

Leif, I'm sure you are just being funny and not serious, but just in case: The NEA accepts applications from artists not scientists. Their mission isn't to promote science, but art. Even if you were going to eventually use LDD for art, a grant for LDD would be outside the NEA's mission. Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

Dan.. as one about to try the LDD thing, I think most folks will just try it and if it works, continue using it... I don't have any motivation to research how they made the parts of my lathe... it works and I'm happy.. YMMV

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Reply to
mac davis

Dan: Are you saying that woodturning isn't an "art?" If it is in a museum, it must be art!! LDD is just a means to enhance and better practice our art. If you examine the NEA's granting parameters, I suggest a clever woodturner like Arch could come up with some suitable musing that could justify such a grant! (TIC!)

Leif

Reply to
Leif Thorvaldson

====>One has! I am sorry, but I forget his name and am not sure if he still plays in our sandbox. I seem to have lost our correspondence on this, although part of it may be in the in the Sacred Archives. This individual, if I recall correctly, had a Master's Degree in Biology and a PhD in Biochemistry. He pursued it as far as he could, but to go further would have involved using testing equipment at his workplace that he could not justify for an off-the-books personal project, citing that it would be very expensive to pay for the use of the machinery.

So, it might not be as simple as you imply.

Leif

Reply to
Leif Thorvaldson

Maybe LDD is just related to voodoo... it puts a hex on the wood and the wood in turn gives up its water... maybe it is like the phrase "suck it up"....

i figure it this way, it makes for a good spirited debate. and, if it works, it works, and if it doesnt, it doesnt. it works for one person (at least according to leif). so, logic would suggest that if somebody else did the EXACT same thing, the same result would happen.

either way, if it works, does it really matter how or why? that is really the question. along that line, if a tree falls in the forest does it make a sound? if it falls on a mime, does anybody care?

I am game to give it a shot and see what happens. i figure it cant be any worse than cooking. It took me 65 batches of salsa before i got it just right. So, i figure my hands will be soft and the wood may (or may not) check. And it will only cost me a bottle (or three) of LDD and some time. Since there is mostly drivel on tv, i figure i am not really missing anything.

Rob

Reply to
Rob McConachie

Leif, Leif, Leif. Maybe if I said it differently or louder you'll understand. I said RESEARCHING THE CHEMICAL SCIENCE OF THE WOOD DESSICATION PROCESS is not art. Geez. Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

InspirePoint website is not affiliated with any of the manufacturers or service providers discussed here. All logos and trade names are the property of their respective owners.