Musing about professional vs hobby vs amateur woodturners.

In message , Arch writes

I come from a background of Quality Assurance, and an important factor is "Fit for Purpose" If the object that is made meets the needs of the client then it can be either be by A N Other or Picasso, it matters not.

As has been mentioned by Mac and others each turning has an owner, you just need to find them.

You could turn the most awful pen, none of the joints meeting smoothly, horrid style. But what's to say it has no value, someone may purchase it just to use as an example of how not to do it. (Have you ever tried to do something your good at, badly ?)

My definition of a Professional has always been the simple one of if you are paid for a service or produce a product you are paid for then you are a professional. But you could extrapolate from this, a turner producing bowls, but never sells one may not be a Professional Bowl Turner' , though the same person could be producing hundreds of pens a day, everyone selling, so you could call them a "Professional Pen Turner".

So is it better to define a Professional Turner for individual Disciplines Bowls, Pens, Spindles etc. as above. Or should the term Professional Turner be applied, when the turner acquires Professional status (as I have defined above) in 2,3,4, 5 different fields of turning.

Is repeatability an important factor too, I would say no, as artists like free expression, so probably prefer to make different objects every time, always looking for that something better.

One thing over the years I have noticed is that "Professional Bodies" have grown up to represent the interests of those in a specific trade, they then define and tailor the standards for that Trade, and everyone assumes they are correct, often to the exclusion of those who are not members of their "Body" In some cases you can find such bodies where when they started the requirements were A, B, C but now new members must have X,Y,Z too, even though many existing members still have only A,B,C

We have all seen website that look amateurish, but they are often created by Professionals, but to the clients requirements. So does a professional needs to have the skill to look like an amateur? Conversely does an Amateur have the skill to look like a Professional ?

Arch, you raise an interesting point, one which I think will be discussed for hundreds of years, or until money is obsolete and the definition of Professional needs revising :)

Many thanks John, for your thoughtful and thought provoking response. Here's some questionable thoughts that you provoked.

In my corner of the USA money may not be becoming obsolete, but it sure is an endangered species and it's rapidly becoming extinct; disappearing into our hungry gas tanks and greedy mortgagees.

In many trade or professional (whatever's the difference) associations, the original rigid ABC requirements for membership have often been reduced to AB or even A, instead of being strengthened to XYZ. I suspect that's owing to the increasing recognition of the value of belonging and the inability of the organizations to keep up with testing and certifying an ever increasing number of applicants. Ex.: Medical speciality certification boards have mostly discontinued hands on practicals and narrative answers in favor of checking the right multiple choice box.

Also I think, that as these "august bodies" age and grow in size there is an inexorable need to spend more money for administration and therefore they have to resort to raising it not only by dues, but also by activities that don't enhance prestige, such as selling advertising, or becoming a publishing house. The American Medical Associaton and the American Radio Relay League might be examples, but to stay on topic, maybe the AAW and the GMC isn't there yet, but their list of publications and videos is getting longer while the content gets more expensive and less original.

As to rcw's fine woodturning professionals and their equally fine hobbyist brethren, not to mention we amateurs, I don't know what to think, but that doesn't stop me from posting too long and too often. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

In message , Arch writes

If you think its an endangered species there, take a trip to the UK for a week and you will need a second mortgage, Our fuel prices are currently hovering at about 11 US Dollars a Gallon

That is interesting, as I see here many bodies increasing the requirements. An example was in the recent past that for 'Gas' ( Not sure what you call it in the US seeing you call fuel for cars Gas) installations in the UK the requirement was to be Competent, but now the main Registration body has convinced the Government that only their members are suitable, and if the installation is not performed by one of their people you will have trouble getting insurance on your building. Maybe this is the outcome of numerous bodies in the EU clambering for.

You may have a point there, I have seen the self importance of the ARRL, and for us in the UK RSGB grow. Admittedly they represent the members but, the hobby is slowly being replaced for many by the Internet. Partly due to it appearing unsociable to have a mast on ones land. Now maybe I should take up operations and watch all these remote devices, WiFi systems come to a grinding halt :)

Many bodies are struggling to find good contributions, maybe as you say less original. How many times can we turn that pen, bowl, etc.?. There are only a limited number of ways. But to new and old alike its sometimes understanding the difference in mechanics that matters. And as areas of interest expand, it becomes harder to provide articles of interest for all to read. I am still new at the game, still hoping to complete the workshop in a few weeks. But I believe I have learnt more on this newsgroup than I could from any book. Why ? Because it is interactive, and that's something no video or book can provide, so we don't get a chance to ask a question.

I will add one further thought for the wood turners here. Are Artists - Professionals ? or Professionals - Artists ? or does each have their own preference ?

While turners keep thinking and keep provoking thought, conversation debate, or even argument, the hobby or profession for some, will always have a chance to grow, and not stagnate into total indifference.

For me Turning is just a bit of fun before lunch :)

I have no experience with the RSGB, but I certainly agree about the ARRL.

Somebody buys the Elvis on Velvet, else they would disappear.

The ARRL seems to fill a necessary public function: communications in a 'disaster'.

Well, a comment from the black and white world of Robert. My definition of a professional is much more pedantic, and certainly much more pragmatic.

If you can support yourself (and maybe your family) in the style you want in the profession you want for two years or more, then you are a professional.

The rest is just playing.

Extra money on the weekends is just a paying hobby or moonlight job.

Turning out an exceptional piece of work and getting paid for it once every six months or so...still playing.

Because someone pays you to paint their doghouse, you aren't a professional painter, I don't care how nice your work is. You are simply a talented painter.

If someone pays you to cut a tree down, you are not a professional arborist, you are a guy with a chainsaw. (But if you do it for free, you probably ARE a woodturner!)

I think a professional is someone that grinds out his living with regular hours, self employed or not, and makes a living at his/her chosen profession. A pro is someone that pays taxes on his income from his chosen profession, and probably has some write offs that are available because the business has met the IRS litmus test.

I am not saying that a hobby guy cannot turn out work better than some professionals; and I am not saying that there is a lot of difference in the quality of work between hobby guys and professionals.

But when you do things for a living, especially as a self employed guy, there are times the lunch whistle means nothing, the dinner bell means nothing, and all you see is finishing the task at hand to fulfill obligations.

When you are a hobby guy, you stop for lunch, come in when your wife calls for dinner, watch playoff games, etc. during your time at the tools. Just because you find someone to buy your efforts doesn't make you some kind of pro.

I guess I have been self employed too long. In reading my typing, I almost hit the IRS definition on the head.

Robert

'Professional' is one of the words I'd like to see made into a word people don't use in polite company. The word 'professional' probably means whatever someone wants it to mean. All I know is it seems to add to the cost of a new tool when they put 'professional' on it.

On the other hand a profession goes through a series of steps as the people in it try to control the market for their services (my opinion). According to

"Classically, there were only three professions: Divinity, Medicine, and Law[16]. The main milestones which mark an occupation being identified as a profession are: 1. It became a full-time occupation; 2. The first training school was established; 3. The first university school was established; 4. The first local association was established; 5. The first national association was established; 6. The codes of professional ethics were introduced; 7. State licencing laws were established"

I guess we have a ways to go before we will need to buy licenses to turn wood and can be members of a profession.

That link above has a long list of what describes a profession in case you have any interest.

Arch... Might be over simplified, but to me, a professional is someone who sells their turnings.. Good, bad, ugly, artsy, whatever.. I know turners that are much more skilled than I am that try to sell their stuff but aren't successful.. OTOH, I look at some of the crap that I did 5 or 6 years ago, that people actually bought, and I'm both amazed and embarrassed..

I think Micro$oft is a good example.. they turn out some good stuff and some real crap.. but it all sells, so I consider them professional.. YMWV

mac

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Yep.. my dad used to say that there was "an ass for every seat"..lol

mac

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Company I worked for in DC advertised itself as a "Professional Services Company". Translated, that meant "Beltway Bandit" - in the most pejorative sense of the term. Some BBs substituted "Firm" for "Company", believing that gave them an international cachet.

After reading the post, what springs to my mind is who the hell cares? If you need a definition, surely an amateur in it's proper sense means one who does it for the sake of , a professional does it for profit i.e.to earn a living. I seriously doubt many turners actually making enough to live on from turning these days, unless they are extremely famous, and even then they probably make more from teaching or writing than production.

I can remember when I first started in on my woodworking career that the magazine questionaires would ask are you professional, or hobbyist. I felt that I was, and still am a semi-pro. I work at it pretty much full time, I pay taxes, I make enough money at it to support my habbit in good style, and to pay all the associated bills (business inusrance included). I don't make a living at it. I can see how I could make a living at it, but that would require working too hard at it, and would probably suck most of the joy out of it. Amateur, from the root word amator (lover) One who engages in a pursuit, study, science, or sport as a pastime rather than as a profession. A little of both for me, I do love what I do.

              Fortiter

Just had that discussion a few days ago!

A lady wanted to come see my "studio"... I told her that my pieces were in 2 studios, meaning "art studios", in my mind..

She said something like "No, I mean where you create your art"..

I told her that my shop was part of my house and that she was welcome to come on up and visit..

mac

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