Musing about steels for woodturners. (way too long)

Recently there has been several threads about steels and turning tools, both commercial and shop made. Many here came to the wood lathe by way of the engine lathe or other single point cutting machine tools and/or have backgrounds in engineering and construction, but not everyone here came by these paths.

We are a diverse group and many of us are limited in our understanding of steels. I thought to offer a brief primer to bring some of you up (and most of you down) to my level of understanding. It won't make anyone into a machinist or metallurgist and might not even be correct, but it works for me so I can at least read and partially understand catalogs, ads and rcw threads ...and as with this post, I can occasionally put on airs and "assume the mantle when I have it not". I urge your corrections and additions and hope those who really know something about these things will just laugh and not groan or throw up. :)

A steel tool must be harder (resist deformation) than wood in order to cut it. Any steel usually is. The steel must be tough (less brittle) enough to withstand mechanical shocks so as not to chip or fracture. It must not be abraided easily (wear resistance). If the steel has these attributes the tool still needs to have the proper shape to do a particular job and a sharp enough edge to penetrate the surface of the wood.

For a turning tool, the steel needs the above three qualities; hardness, toughness and wear resistance. They are each important, but they often work against each other (when one improves the other worsens). Additionally they reach a point (threshold) where more is not any better. Like most of our lives, it's the same ole compromise between hardness, toughness and wear resistance.

I've never seen a tool get red hot while turning wood, but grinding and sharpening a tool is part of the turning process and must be taken into account. Grinding can get steel very hot so there is another quality of steel to consider called "red hardness"; namely the ability to keep its hardness during and after very high temperatures.

The steel rounds and flats you buy at Lowes are useless as turning tools. This steel is fairly tough, but it's woefully lacking in hardness and wear resistance. It can be formed while hot or cold, but the cold rolled is smoother and cleaner and cold forming makes any steel harder.

Adding more carbon to these steels makes "high carbon steel" that has some of the three qualities, but its red hardness is poor and except for being fairly tough so as to take a fine edge without chipping or fracture, the other qualities are nothing to write home about. So those old 'high carbons' are fine if you don't mind renewing the edge frequently while keeping the tool nice and cool. I still use mine. Actually, resharpening is the only way I can tell if _any tool is as sharp as it can be. Some of you may be more clairvoyant than I. :)

There's a limit to what adding carbon alone can do, but adding alloys will make "high speed steel" which is a much better upgrade and compromises the 'qualities' far less than plain high carbon. It's hard and stays that way after getting red hot. It's tough and doesn't break when you get a catch and it takes and keeps a good edge. It isn't so easily abraided either.

The alloy materials added to the carbon alloyed steel to make high speed steel are variously tungsten, molybdenum, chromium and vanadium. Those with the letter 'T' are high in tungsten and you know what those with the higher molybdenum are called. Yep 'M' and ole faithful M2 is a good compromise for a high speed steel turning tool and except for special needs like maybe cobalt for inserted bits, I think it's good enough for most all woodturning use. IMHO we don't need to be overly concerned about the different high speed steels, whether cheap or expensive. imported or domestic.

I know there are some so called "super high speed" steels with special alloying that increases hardness without excessive brittleness or a tendency for the edges to chip. They are great for saving time for professionals and for affluent hobbyists to brag about. I don't own any so I can't comment, not that that usually stops me.

BUT WAIT! Some caring (enterprising) entrepreneurs powdered and froze those super steels to improve the 'qualities' (profits) and save the professionals even more time and give the hobbyists even more expensive toys to brag about. Of course, time is money for some, so it's back to the same old compromise.

That's my take on tool steels or rather steels for tools. Hope this helps, but your mileage may vary, so don't take these musings too seriously. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

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Arch
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This reply is titled blasphemy so you may skip it in advance. Aluminum - is there any chance an alloy of this metal (the most common in earth's crust, by the way] may serve WT? Please compare to carbon steel. I know its light, and this is a drawback, especially while rounding a blank, but how about later on, for fine detail? Thanks

Reply to
Max63

Does a tool from a steel that stays sharp 5 times as long take 5 times as long to sharpen? If it is more resistant to wood abrasion wouldn't it be more resistant to abrasion by aluminum oxide? This is a serious question. I have never used any of the super steel chisels.

Reply to
Gerald Ross

Ever see an aluminum knife? Ever wonder why?

Reply to
Maxwell Lol

You can get aluminum hard enough to take an edge, the problem is, it snaps at the slightest excuse

Reply to
Ralph E Lindberg

Aluminum would probably make nice gray rub marks on woodturnings.

Reply to
Derek H

long to sharpen? If it is more resistant to >wood abrasion wouldn't it be more resistant to abrasion >by aluminum oxide? This is a serious

I have actually purchased some of the newer chisels made the "super" metals and actually used a couple owned by others. I know many folks are terribly proud of their tools, so I will say this only in regards to myself - they weren't worth the money.

They didn't sharpen any different than any other of the M2 style tools, and they *seem* to stay sharp longer in use. The only one I know stays sharp longer, cuts better and actually works as advertised is the old chisels used in the Glaser tools.

The chisels I bought of the powdered metal tools, 2030 I believe, were not hugely impressive. Again, it may just be me, but I just didn't see the bang for the buck. I am so used to going over to the grinder or pulling out my shaped water stone (which sits right by the lathe in water when I am turning) to put a fresh edge on as needed I felt like I didn't get my money's worth. The edge on the newer super metals didn't last that much longer, no matter how carefully or what method I used when I sharpened.

For bits in a homemade tools for hollowers, etc., the better tool steels are a must, though. And while they don't leave a great surface (again, may just be me!) those 10% cobalt bits I purchased to use in my homemade hollower stay sharp a long time. For $2 each (then snapped in half to get two bits) I'll spring for them.

But I am not going to pay an extra $50 for one chisel.

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

That certainly includes me.

professionals even more time and give the >hobbyists even more expensive

Back in the days when I was a regular turning club member, we had many good demos from "nationally known" turners. I only saw certain ones using the exotic powdered metals and their cousins, and they were the ones that got them free to use on the demo circuit. None of them were overly impressed.

Every one has to have something to sell. In the case of the big chisel/gouge manufacturer, they are indeed looking for the next big tool angle to market, and they cannot be left behind in the marketing game. Anytime you can sell a piece of round tool stock with a groove in it mounted on a $3 handle for $90, you can't afford to be left behind!

I don't begrudge them their attempts at marketing something new and I am sure that somewhere in there some of those tool steels have more value. How much, I don't know.

But that being said, I can tell you three things that made the edge last ten times longer on a tools than when I started turning.

1) proper, consistent grinding 2) touch up the edge with a water stone right off the grinder - just about 3 - 4 swipes on the edge to knock back any tiny shavings and to put a little bit finer edge on the tool 3) better tecnique in using the tool. When I decided to relax and let the tools cut instead of really laying on them, they stay sharp a lot longer

Just my 0.02.

I'd love to hear anyone else's take on the newest metals and their use.

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

No. But even if it did, the additional time to sharpen would be measured in seconds.

If it is more resistant to wood abrasion wouldn't it

Wood has tiny amounts of silica (etc) within it. An aluminum oxide wheel is made of it and binders. Much higher percentage of much harder material.

This is a serious

Nor have I. But only because they would provide no advantage to me.

Bill

Reply to
BillinDetroit

You've already heard mine. To be precise, you've enunciated them. Of course, I'm such a dinosaur that I don't use that 1970 or thereabout "improvement" now called a bowl gouge to do most of the work on my bowls either. Nor do I have continuously variable electronically stabilized digital readout speeds.

If it makes you feel good, what's the harm? Buy anything you like. Just don't expect everyone else to be as impressed with your purchase as you are.

Reply to
George

My first experiment with a 'stays sharp 5 times longer' gouge was with a Packard model. I had been using an Ellsworth signature gouge up until then. I used the Packard gouge exclusively for a month or two, then on a whim went back to the Ellsworth gouge. I noticed that the Ellsworth gouge took a keener edge than the fancy gouge. I now have one of the harder Oneway gouges, a Glaser or 2, and just got 2 of the Thompson gouges. After a lot of use on all of them, the thing that makes the most difference is the shape of the flute, not the metal. A gouge fresh off the grinder has the best edge. This is what I use for the finish cut. There is no detectable difference in how long this edge lasts on any of the gouges. On the fancy ones, the 'I can still hog off a bunch more material before it needs to be sharpened again' edge does seem to last longer.

Flute design seems to make use easier or harder to me. I prefer the more rounded designs to the v shaped designs. The v does work a bit better on the outside of the bowl, but isn't as effective on the inside or when hogging off a lot of material, as it tends to plug up. The rounded flutes clear out the chips better, and don't clog up. They also work equally well on the inside or outside of the bowl. The Thompson gouges are the most open of the gouges I have tried to date. The profile on the front is more blunt (as compared to the swept back design). This does seem to inhibit hogging off a lot of material. With the swept back design, I can remove a 3/4+ inch wide shaving, but with the Thompson profile, this is more like 1/2 inch or less. Mostly I use scrapers for the hogging off work, but that is another topic.

Sharpening is as important as any other thing we do. I have had a 320 grit wheel for sharpening my gouges. The theory was that a keener edge would work better and the tools would last a lot longer. The fact seems to be that the edge is maybe a tiny bit keener, but with the finer grit, I had to keep the tool on the the wheel longer to remove enough steel to get the fresh edge. On a whim (I do have a lot of whims), I started sharpening them on my 80 grit wheel. The edges seem to last a bit longer, and I get at least as good of a cut. I am having a 150 grit wheel made. I am fortunate to have a company in town who can custom make the wheels for me out of CBN (cubic boric nitride, which is made for grinding steel, about $300 for an 1 by 8 inch wheel), and lasts seemingly forever. My 80 grit wheel is 3 years old and shows almost no wear. This idea (removing enough steel when sharpening) was told to me by the folks at Oneway. I was having problems (still am actually) with sharpening their bits on their coring system. I was trying to sharpen by putting it on a diamond stone and stroking it, rather than holding it up to a grinding wheel. I never got satisfactory results. They told me that you have to remove a certain amount of steel to get a new edge. I get better results when sharpening it on an 80 grit wheel (held in a jig rather than in my fingers). I am still experimenting with this.

robo hippy

On Sep 20, 7:33 am, "George" wrote:

Reply to
robo hippy

I started this thread late last night and figured I'd better read it again. Before reading it put me to sleep, I remembered that softer material can penetrate harder material at high velocity. A straw driven into a fence post during a hurricane, etc. I've seen aluminum, wooden and plastic knives, but I was musing about cutting wood, not about straws in a hurricane or opening envelopes or slicing pie. :)

I hope not to mislead anyone further by adding another chapter to my primer, but forget tool and timber variables for now and consider the effect of turning technic on the length of time _any tool's edge, cheap or expensive, will remain sharp before it needs resharpening. I know from messing about with my metal lathe that "cutting speed" is important re a tool bit's edge life. As much or more than feed or depth of cut. I don't see why this wouldn't apply to turning wood.

It's obvious, but important to remember that the cutting speed (how fast the wood moves past the tool's edge) is not the same as the spindle speed. (ok, I guess it is if the blank's diameter is the same as the spindle's) It may not be the same thing, but spindle speed sure plays a large part in determining cutting speed and we can control spindle speed and thus to a large extent the life of a tool edge. To belabor the point and not say in one word what I can usually say in ten, I think turning at slower spindle speeds will prolong the edge life of any turning tool and it's free and easy to do. Or you could just make resharpening easier and more convenient and turn up the speed. Naw!

Another spec. often listed for turning tools that might confuse a few of us is that mysterious number, the Rockwell C. This is just a number with no units that indicates how deep the steel can be penetrated by a ball or cone forced under a specific load. IOW, it indicates how hard (resistance to deformation) the steel was tempered to. The higher the number the harder the steel, usually limited by the steel becoming more brittle.

Please remember that this is just one turner's primer. Don't take it to the bank and try to deposit it. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

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Reply to
Arch

don't expect everyone else to be as impressed with your >purchase as you are.

Nicely said. I think that could actually applied to a lot of things well past woodturning toys.

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

professionals even more time and give the >hobbyists even more expensive

Of course there's always a use for new alloys, but you're right about the idea that everyone has something to sell.

As a somewhat unrelated example, the most striking one I've seen is "powder coating". Yes, melting powder onto metal will make a thick coat of protective covering. And, it's a lot faster than painting- it gets baked on in 15-20 minutes, and is ready to package as soon as it's cooled. No arguments there.

But, that is not *ever* the reason I hear for using the stuff. Everyone seems to have bought the line that it is tougher and lasts longer than that crappy old wet paint... Bullsh*t. I've got stuff that is 75 or 80 years old that was wet painted with enamel, that looks less than perfect, but still pretty good- but I've seen plenty of powder coat on the same type of items that looks like it was never finished after three to five years. We're constantly sending parts back to to chipping finish in later ops, and light spots on the inside corners (the electricity involved makes the powder kind of shy away from tight internal radii- I don't know the technical details of why it happens, but I've doen some powder coating, and you can watch it happen)

Here's the acid test of this, in my eyes- If you have a trailer hitch on your vehicle, keep an eye on it for the next few years. Almost all hitches are powder coated, and almost all vehicles are wet-painted. I don't recall ever seeing a trailer hitch that was in better condition than the paint on the vehicle it is attached to. There are arguments for why this might be the case, but I know some pretty careful people who would never let a trailer tongue scratch their hitch, as well as more than a few who have never used the thing. They all end up looking the same.

The same thing is likely to be happening with things like powdered metal. I'm not saying it isn't a good product- I've never used it or really given it a hard look, but the quick once-over I gave the idea left me with the impression that it can be injection molded. Now, that's a wonderful thing if you are manufacturing tools- think of how much faster you could injection mold metal parts than you could make with standard machining operations. Higher speed almost always means larger profits. It also (should) mean that the manufacturer can offer thier product for a lower price. But higher turnover speed and lower price do not neccessarily make for a better finished product.

They do make for a better business model- and if a guy can make more money with a new process or material, the salesmen with find any way they can to make you believe it is the best thing ever, and the old way is nothing but crap. Not much you can do about it beyond taking careful note of what is working well for your own application, and refusing to like things better simply because they're newer and you paid more for them.

Reply to
Prometheus

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