Musing: Art vs Woodturning

Arch, I miss the musings...........................

Last night I had a rare opportunity to addend a museum opening for a solo exhibition by Binh Pho. The exhibit is in Long Beach at the Museum of Art. There were several notable turners there, a bunch of collectors and other art patrons.

I drove to the exhibit with Ernest Grabbe and Don Derry. Ernest is a woodturner and collector. Don is a professional turner who some of you may know.

One of the very interesting things about Binh's work is that it tells his personal story of escape from communist Viet Nam, recapture, imprisonment, difficult ocean crossing and ultimate freedom in the USA. Every one of his pieces tells a story of something outside of woodturning -mostly his life's story.

On our drive home, Don made the comment that many artists seek and find their inspiration in their art. In other words, the culture is "inbred". Although a little bit of a cliche, he asked why rock and roll music is about "sex, drugs and rock and roll"? His point is that musicians are drawing on their life as musicians for their inspiration.

He noted that many woodturners are the same way. They find their inspiration in other woodturning instead of their life, their environment, their relationships, their work, or their faith. When we look to other turners, our work emulates theirs or extrapolates from theirs. When you look at Binh's work, you would be very hard pressed to identify his woodturning influences. I would speculate he is influenced by Frank Sudol, but that is all I can determine. Binh's work is his own.

So the question becomes, where do I get my ideas, my spark, my inspiration?

Joe Fleming - San Diego

Reply to
Joe Fleming
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Me too!

SNIP

I am hoping that you are inviting comment, and that wasn't a rhetorical question.

For me, I blow in the wind, and wherever it takes me, that is what I make. I am not artist; but I have fun at the craft and craftsmanship. But the other side of woodturning for me is this; I have a full woodshop (as a general contractor) and I do more flatwork than I do round. The round work is my release of my inner pottery self.

I have a really organic side and like to cook, bake bread, smoke meats and all other kinds of food prep. I grow vegetables, many spices, hot peppers, etc., that I use and do a lot of food prep and storage.

With that in mind, one year I went nuts and started making spoon, spatulas, turners, and on and on that I could use in the kitchen. A quick trip to the 'net revealed that there are many different kinds of spoons and there are good spoons and not so good spoons. I always thought if I could shovel with it, who cares? I rounded up a lot of my old flat stock and laid out some spoon patterns and turned away to make the shapes and handles I wanted, then hollowed them out with a hand held burr. I enjoyed it so much I made about 25 or so in one season at Christmas and kept some and gave some away. The best part was that everyone that got a spoon as a gift thought it reminded them of an old wooden spoon in "grandma's kitchen". Mission accomplished.

Last year I spent some good museum time while visiting relatives and was fascinated by the oil lamps in the Egyptian and Viking/Norse exhibits. I am not sure why - they were short, squatty, and were designed with utility in mind. I came back to the lathe and sketched out the patterns and then dug out some really rough crotches and turned out some forms to hold oil lamps. I had a lot of fun with these as I found some shapes for inspiration in different places, and I wound up making a lot of them for me and mine. The ones I didn't like as much as my favorites, I easily sold. I liked using the crotch wood as it gave it a really "busy" look in the grain and I used mesquite so I could leave some natural occlusions showing for accent.

I like ginger jars and Roman inspired vases. I don't know why. I like the way they look and I like to turn them as well.

I enjoy things that are nice to look at, and feel good to use. I am really most pleased when someone tells me that have gotten a lot of use out of something I have made. One of my more artistic curly maple bowls is nice, but soon forgotten in the display cabinet. But a good utensil, lamp, bowl or set of drawer pulls is enjoyed every time it is used.

And I would much rather have one of my large (13"!) bread spoons used to pieces than sitting in a drawer somewhere or put in a display. I was disappointed to see that some of the folks that bought my lamps won't use them as they are afraid "something will happen to them". They put them out on a table for display at certain occasions, but won't burn them. The same with the spoons and turners. I >want< people to use them - to me it is a connection to the past before we had metal and plastic spoons and utensils. I personally like the feel of a good, well made wooden utensil much more than my stainless steel stuff.

One lady I sold a couple of spoons to has a more country type motif in her home, and she (only) displays the spoons I made her to a pattern she picked. She never uses them and never will. But they are just spoons...

As you can see, I am on a practical, useful jag right now, not much for the artistic aspects. I appreciate it a great deal in others but not for me at this time. I would be interested to see where others draw their inspiration(s) and what they are turning.

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote in news:1165658107.041661.58690@

16g2000cwy.googlegroups.com:

Robert, Like you I don't consider myself an artist. I would not ever consider myself an artist. Maybe someday, others will consider me an artist (other than bs). I have a feeling that others will consider you an artist long before me. I share most of your interests; cooking, smoking (what Texan can't do a brisket) etc. I'm also a brewer of excellent beers and ales. I brew to my taste so I can be an artist in my own mind. I've been playing with a home brewed pot 'still'. Maybe I'll be known as the best 'stiller' of apple brandy in the Catkills after the 'revenuerers' shoot my useless ass. Regards

Reply to
Henry St.Pierre

Well, if I were to answer this question honestly, I think I'd have to say most of my inspiration comes from industry. While a lot of folks would find that dull, there are a lot of very nice designs that develop almost accidently during the course of creating a product. The function determines the form, and while the end result may be something like a simple box, there are often stages of the process where the materials look like something different altogether,

On the other side, I occasionally take a notebook along when I go out looking for wood, and sketch interesting shapes I see out in the forest. But that doesn't happen as often as I might like, with all the irons I've got in the fire, and it'd be a little disingenous to say that that's my main inspiration.

Back to the original musing, I actually try to avoid looking at other turnings much of the time, so that I can make my own things, and am not intentionally or unintentionally copying another person's work. That being said, there are only so many basic shapes, so everything is bound to look a little like something else if you look hard enough.

Reply to
Prometheus

Joe:

I found you musing interesting as I was thinking about something similar the same day, and perhaps you will find this perspective interesting as well.

On the program Radio Times, Marti was interviewing an author/scientist who had just written a book about the differences between female & male brains, and who mentioned there is still resistance among those who say all differences are learned. Also she mentioned that they were speaking in generalities anyway because there were such wide difference in physical make-up of the brain between individuals of the same gender.

IMO, and I believe the most widely accepted opinion, is that we are all a combination of innate abilities and tendencies and learned behavior.

What this all got me to thinking was about how differences in our innate brain abilities would affect our woodworking skills and directions and tendencies.

For example, my number skills are very poor, and this clearly affects the way I approach woodworking. On the other hand, my three-dimensional reasoning is very good. So working with the metric system is very difficult for me, and no easier or more intuitive than hex or octal numbering systems. Fractions OTH are a cinch, since they represent parts of the whole - halves, quarters, eights, etc.

So when I think of what inherent abilities I bring to woodworking that enables me to succeed, I look at three-dimensional reasoning, creativity, and reading comprehension as about it, but I imagine others would have different strengths and weaknesses.

When I turn, I pick a piece of wood I think will look nice when turned, and start turning. I'm not trying to express anything, or make a statement, or explore new ground, or impress anybody, but I can clearly see in my minds eye a form that I think is pretty, and have no trouble translating that form to the piece. More experienced and far better turners than myself have seen my turnings and made generous and favorable comments on the shapes and wonder where I got the inspiration, but really it's just "extemporaneous, of my mother wit".

So I would say that being "above-average" in creative ability and in three-dimensional resoning is what informs my work. (Less this sounds pompous, let me just add that the areas in which my brain is far below average outweigh my few talents.)

So I wonder what abilities people bring to their work that helps to shape it and make it unique?

Reply to
Juvenal

Thanks Joe and Robert for your kind reassurances that there is a place here for idly reflecting on things that may or may not directly involve working at our lathes. Glad you two and others took up the 'burden'. :) Your musing is great, as are the responses. Keep em coming, folks.

I believe there is some merit in the 'analysis-->paralysis' theory of personal turned wood design. Maybe like life "the unexamined design isn't worth turning", but in my case I hope neither is true. I suppose that one definition of art might be that it is communication without language. That may be so, but timber only talks to me when I hurt it with a wrong cut. The turnings I make out of it rarely do much more than mumble and grunt. My inspiration, if you can call it that, mostly comes after the blank starts spinning.

Regardless, I enjoy turning wood and take pleasure in holding and looking at some of my work, but it is the icing on the cake when for whatever reason, someone else seems to like something I made. I like to think that I don't care, but I do. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

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Reply to
Arch

Joe, I think one of the misconceptions that I have read on RCW many times is that art is exclusive of woodturning and vice versa. You can see it in your subject line, too. As if you can have one of the other, but not both. To me, a more interesting musing would be Art AND Woodturning.

Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

Here's the flip side of that coin... I don't know that I am particularly creative in the way in which it seems to be used in the context of "art". While I am pretty good at three-dimentional reasoning, it is more like visualizing coordinates on a grid and finding points than anything viseral. I prefer parabolic shapes that could be defined by a clean equation to organic shapes- though those two are less exclusive than they appear at first, and try to keep things clean and neat rather than embellish them- the credit for embellishment goes more to the grain in the wood than to myself in most cases!

But I'd think I'm actually fairly creative if you just look at the word, and forget the context that art has put it in. I make a lot of original objects that are generally attractive, and always functional. If that isn't creation, I'm not sure what is! :)

There is certainly room for all approaches in any hobby work like woodturning or more general woodworking- after all, that's why we have things like Queen Anne chairs for some folks, and Morris chairs for others.

Reply to
Prometheus

Dan,

Great observation. Another way to phrase it is: "I turn to turn", vs "I turn to create art." One could argue that Binh Pho is simply creating a three dimensional canvas for his painting and piercing. Minimally, yes, but the turning form itself contribute to the art piece as a whole.

I find that I get a lot of satisfaction from turning to turn. I get constipated trying to force out "art". I will keep trying though, because I see so much beauty in the woodturned art I get to experience. Probably some ego in there too. :-)

Joe

Dan Boll> > So the question becomes, where do I get my ideas, my spark, my > > inspiration? >

Reply to
Joe Fleming

There are the pyrographers, cut and paste, paint and shine and all kinds of types who create art out of their turnings. Some even draw plans.

I discover what's there while I'm turning.

If it's what I saw, well and good.

Reply to
George

One of the things I noticed in our recent trip to Thailand is that the turning all seemed to be done for the purpose of being a "canvas". It was lacquered, inlaid, painted and who knows what else, but little if any was left as "wood." One of the reasons I got a drum to bring home was it was turned and unfinished except for some staining and the drum fittings.

Reply to
Darrell Feltmate

Here is another example that makes my previous point. George's comment above implies that art is something you do after turning, that the turning can't be, or is void of, art. Another way of saying this is, "A turning isn't art, but might be the canvas for art." I disagree.

I think I am correct in saying that the premise behind The Wood Turning Center is that turnings CAN be art sometimes, even without the post-processing George mentions.

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Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

Reply to
George

As do I. But that said, it is a serious error, I think, to try to define art in the sense of requiring that it meet specification 'x' or 'y'.

Art is an emotional experience and those who wish to confine that are no better than those who would limit our faith in a supreme being to narrow corridors of thought or our political conscience to a single perspective.

If I turn a piece of wood and even in its desired shape 'something' is missing, yer durned tootin' I'm going to give some thought to painting, burning, sculpting, inlays and so on. I'm still new at the game ... just now getting to the point where tool choice and presentation doesn't require much thought so I am quite happy to make a bowl that doesn't require much sanding and that has had all of its problems answered as they were encountered.

But I have a 12" od by about 3" deep box elder bowl with only a twinge of the red and a very small amount of curliness that is just calling for a dark green leaf just below and to the left of the red knot showing on the outside. Maybe two leaves. In fact, maybe it would look best with all of the outside painted except for that little shot of red. Hmmm ... once the pump gets primed ... ideas just flow.

Here's the point: as it sits, that is a very ordinary sort of bowl. I can sell it as a bowl for maybe $25-$35 or I can say "I don't have much to lose ... let's see what I can REALLY do with this thing."

I'll let you guys know how it all turns out. I just took it off the lathe tonight and hit it with its first coat of tung oil. It won't get any leaves at all for quite some time. When it does ... who knows what it'll end up looking like? If push comes to shove, there's always the backyard fire pit on cool nights in the spring.

When -I- look at something my own hands have created and I am still moved to say "wow" ... that's art.

Bill

Reply to
Bill in Detroit

SNIP

Bill, all I can say is "why not?" I *NEVER* listen to the group mentality of what the "art" of woodturning is supposed to be. Like Joe, I like to get out and just use the lathe. I used to have a wonderful railroad game that had a mode called "sandbox". All you did was build trains, stations, and work the locomotives. It was a joy all in iteself. You competed against no one, not even the computer. You played just for the fun of it.

I think if you want to burn, pierce, shoot (tip of the hat to Phil Brennion), paint, stain, dye, texture, cut, stencil, or any other thing you want to do with your work you should. And I don't think you should have another thought about it. Even if you are a serious turner, you should have fun with this and do as you please; and experimentation is certainly part of having fun and learning this craft.

Some turners are certainly very gifted and imaginative, and they turn out some really wonderful projects. But I have mentioned this before here, that seemingly the most talented of those are not hung up with "what is a proper wall thickness" or "the rule of thirds" or accepted finishes, etc. For the most part they are pretty open minded and actually seem enjoy hearing about alternative methods to an end.

For most of us here, this represents a hobby. (My definition of hobby: If you don't make enough money doing it to support you and your household responisbilities day in and day out, then it is a hobby.) Hobbies should be fun. This is a great hobby to have since you can share your results with others. And it has been my experience that with something like you bowl, if you paint your leaves or anything else in it someone will absolutely love it. Of course that might depend on your painting skills, but you get the point.

Since this is your hobby, you should do whatever makes your heart happy. You should paint that rascal and post the pics. I'll be it would be great. You could even paint some green miseltoe leaves on it and give it as a Christmas gift!

Follow your ideas...

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

George, I didn't mean you implied it. I meant your statement did. Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

I wasn't defining it as this or that. There is an old saying in the art biz: A person who makes something is the only one who can call it 'art.' The rest of us just get to say how well he/she succeeded.

Dan

Reply to
Dan Bollinger

Well, now you know that what you read and stated is not what I wrote.

As I said, I approach a piece of wood as a piece of wood, with only a general idea of what may emerge. I turn and discover, without formal plans, seldom embellish or modify other than shape. I don't have the capability, and only envy for those who do.

What someone else sees in a piece I turn, or a sentence I write can obviously be much different.

Reply to
George

snip

We surrounded by ideas, sparks, inspirations. They're EVERYWHERE! Sometimes they're like pale, distant stars that you can't see if you look right at them. That's because our eyes are set up with different specialized areas - one area for details and color but not as sensitive to light as our "off center" field of vision. Our brains are like that - only with more specialized areas. The trick is getting the "idea, spark, inspiration" to the right area of the brain that can use them.

Though some call it The Creative Process, I believe it's more like selective synthesis - combining things that already exist in ways that they've not been combined before and sometimes exploiting some unusual feature or characteristic of one or more of those elements/bits and pieces. "Seeing" the new combination may be why we call people who are really good at it "visonaries". Everyone has the ability, to a greater or lesser degree. Listen to a kid describe something and it's clear that we all have the mental capability. Schools, jobs, responsibilities often cause us to forget just how amazing the human brain is amongst all the noise of daily life.

There are some "tricks" to this process, some obvious once you're made aware of them, some discovered randomly, but consciously noted when that occurs.

One of these "tricks" is to see what's actually there as opposed to what your mind wants to impose on what you're seeing. The classic example of this trick in drawing is to have the subject being drawn oriented in a different way - a picture of a vase, face or landscape turned upside down. The "drawer" tends to make lines representing what they see rather than what they think a vase, face or landscape is supposed to look like. Even novice "drawers" who are sure they can't "draw" surprise them- selves with how well they can, in fact, draw. Remove or reduce as many preconceived ideas as possible and surprising nice things happen.

Here's another "trick" I just learned from watching the two hour vidieo "Bowl Turning with Del Stubbs" (great tape with lots and lots and lots of good information and great camera work, along with good running commentary by Mr. Stubbs - Taunton Books & Videos - ISBN 0-918804-36-1, about $20 US). Drawing a bowl shape is somewhat difficult - doinng half the profile is tricky. Doing the whole symetric profile is where most folks have trouble.

Try this.

Get a big piece of paper and a felt tip.

Without thinking about it too much, if at all, draw a bunch of sweeping, curving lines and squiggles all over hell.

Get a rectandular mirror about a foot square (stop by a glass and mirror shop and pick up one of their cut offs)

Hold that mirror about square to the surface of the paper with all the felt tip penned lines Look at about 45 degrees to the paper and the mirror, seeing both the line(s) on the paper and their reflection in the mirror.

Amazing - you'll see more symetric bolw ideas than you can shake a stick at.

Want taller, vase ideas? Lean the mirror towards you to create narrower shapes.

Want shallow bowl or platter ideas? Lean the mirror away from you.

Move the mirror around the page and more shapes appear!

Being shown this little "trick" made the $20 investment in Del Stubbs tape worth it - the information in the other 115 minutes was essentially free. If you want the rest of the valuable information in this tape you're going to have to make your own investment, either in time at the library, or out of pocket dollars.

Trick # 4876

Expose yourself to as many shapes and images of shapes as you have time for - and not just turned wooden shapes. Doesn't even have to be a shape of the type of thing you're looking for. You might find a nice set of lines on a car or motorcycle in the parking lot of the grocery store/super market, in a picture in a National Geographics magazine in the doctor's waiting room.

Hell, every time I leave my dontist's office (no, that's not a spelling error of "dentists". With specialization comes new titles and "dontists" are very specialized - and expensive. If you haven't gotten to endo-dontists, prosthyio-dontists and perio-dontists you've either flossed regularly or haven't gritted your teeth at work enough) - back to the sentence - I walk over to a big freakin' eucalyptus tree on the edge of the parking lot and study where a badly pruned branch has regenerated into two very large, very heavy, side by side, almost vertical branches. The weight of the branches has created a massive upside down shoulder at the trunk of the tree - the lower part wrinkled all to hell and bulging out like The Rock - on steroids - trying and barely succeeding to not be crushed or wripped apart by all the weight it's supporting (compression wood). And, as I look at that joint I think about how the wood above it at the trunk is being stretched trying to hold up the heavy branches (tension wood). I just know there's a pony in all that horseshit - or rather some really interesting grain figure in that part of the tree. If and when it has to come off or the tree has to come down I WANT THAT PIECE!

Go to a plant nursery and look at the leaves of things - irisis and other bulb plants create nice curving lines. If you rake leaves, or your neighbor does, take a little time to check out lines in the outline of some leaves, or the vein patterns in them. Might be a great idea lurking there, waiting to be discovered - and used - or not.

Pick up a copy of Playbor - not for the articles and the interview, but for the pictures! Use that part of your body ABOVE your waist line - your brain to look for nice shapes - THAT MIGHT BE AN IDEA FOR A BOWL OR VASE OR PLATTER. (Supposedly, the shape of what we all recognize as a champagne glass was inspired by one of Marie Antoinette's breasts. How an artist could let that be known without losing his head is not clear though) There are shapes and forms all around you. Take some time to really look and you'll be surprised how many ideas will come to you - if you make just a little effort.

Another "trick" is to use what initially seems like a negative / barrier and use it rather than avoid it. Good case in point, the piece currently on the lathe, a 3 1/2" x 3 1/2" x 7" almost square blank - a couple of inches of one corner being triangular waney/wainy (the outside of the log, below the cambian layer that's lumpy, bumpy and, in this case, almost black) "imperfection". I'm on a "turned lidded boxes" jag - Christmas presents for family and friends.

As I started roughing the "imperfect square" to round, working from the ends towards the middle, I noticed that the triangular "imperfection" was interesting so I tried to save some of it. It soon came to me that my buddy's son, a volley ball junior olympian, was recovering form a shoulder injury that jeapordized his college scholarship, to say nothing of his passion for the sport. Blank with a potentially bad "shoulder" - volley ball nut . . . hmmm. Didn't take much to start changing the piece to imply a torso - hips to shoulders to neck - with a shoulder that wasn't quite "normal" - but worked.

A potential problem worked around to become a feature - a trick most woodworkers develop over time - That's not a screw up - it's a FEATURE! or How do a use this screw up by changing my original design idea? I'm certain the symbolism in this piece won't be lost on Sam and I know he'll appreciate the piece more than he would if I'd done a more traditional lidded box for him. Here's another "inspiration" trick - take off your glasses or, if you don't wear glasses, just squint and look at things. This will reduce the distractions of details, leaving just the big feature(s) - lighter/darker, general size and shape, and make the outline of things more apparent with fewer adjacent distractions. Don't look for anything specificly - just look. Things will get into your subconscious and sometimes pop out when triggered by sometgubg else - like a chunk of wood, or picking up a gouge or chisel.

Get your ego to go on vacation and get out of the way of the rest of you and your abilities. "I , Me, My/Mine" have a tendency to be risk aversion specialists. If I don't try - then I can't FAIL! (oh fate worse than death). But if you take risks and fail, assuming it's not in fact a fatal failure, the world doesn't end, you don't die and most of the time, your learn something more valuable than if you'd succeeded the first time.

Had enough?

charlie b

Reply to
charlie b

I don't know that it's a "trick", but I try to make sure that every new thing that I am exposed to goes through the same intentional five-stage process. First, I observe it as accurately as possible, using measuring devices where appropriate, senses alone when not. Second, I identify it- again, as accurately as possible. After identification, I interpret it's meaning or function as well as I can. Then I conceptualize it by turning the object or idea into a more generalized archetype that can describe most of the variations of the given object or idea that run in the same vein. And finally, integrate it with my total worldview- aiming for something similar to a taxonomy, with broad general systems branching into smaller and more specialized areas of knowledge with mental cross-references.

Sounds complicated, maybe, but it's a good way of making sure that you don't lose information, and can actually remember it when needed. I came up with it by thinking about thought for a while, and it seems to work pretty well- I've got whole lot of stuff in my head, useful or not, that I can call up pretty quickly. Whether the process is applied to everything, technical information only, or aestetic concepts, it works pretty well.

Truer words were rarely said. It took me a while to understand that concept, but now I plan on failing the first few attempts at any new thing, and it's very liberating when it comes to contemplating any undertaking. Very few things go according to plan when you're doing them for the first time- but if you understand that, and are willing to fail, you can do just about anything. Sometimes you get it right the first time out, but then that's just an extra bonus.

Reply to
Prometheus

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