Questions re nanograin carbide turning tools (long & tedious)

Arch, I can answer some of your questions. I am not very knowlegable about the metal specifics, I just use and grind the stuff. I have a hollowing tool that I got from Packard that has an articulated head, and a HSS disc, I think it is called the 'Super Cut". It comes with a mandril that you can put the disc on, and sharpen it. It leaves a glass smooth finish on end grain turnings. I have the Eliminator tools which have the micro grain carbide discs on them, and they also leave a glass smooth finish. I believe they can all be used to ride the bevel for a finish cut on a bowl. They are very similar to the Hunter tools. The biggest advantage they offer to the HSS is the long time they last before you rotate the disc. This could be in the 10 to 1 category. Do they give a superior finish? I can't tell from feeling the wood, maybe a micro scope could tell the difference, but I can't. They are most handy when working really hard and abrasive woods. I think Mac will chime in here as he got an Eliminator for his iron wood turnings, and loves it. Will they take over the turning world? probably not. HSS and the powder metals will dominate for a long time, they really work well, and can be easily sharpened. The expence is up there. If you make your own shafts, and just buy the discs, it isn't too expensive. Can they be sharpened? I don't see why not. You would need a mandril, a drill or lathe mount, and a diamnod hone. You can't touch carbide with standard grinding wheels. For some reason, I just don't like the idea of a throw away tool.

As far as the powder metals, I own a bunch of the Thompson gouges, along with a few other types including HSS, and some of the other 'lasts 5 times longer' gouges. I reach for the Thompson ones first. I like the flute shapes much better, and they just feel nicer as they cut. My experience with the 'lasts 5 times longer' metals is that they keep a working edge far longer, as in 'I can still hog off a bunch more material before it really needs to be sharpened. They don't keep the finish cut/fresh off the grinder cut any longer. The Thompson tools seem to be the exception here. They do keep that edge a bit longer, especially with some honing.

robo hippy Arch wrote:

No idea what the difference is in the 2 carbides, Arch.. Could be a huge difference, could be a marketing strategy, since they claim the Nano can hold a sharper edge.. My only experience with carbide turning tools is the Mega Eliminator, as Reed mentioned, and it uses Nanograin..

I can tell you that it CUTS... wow! I'm able to do things now that I just couldn't before getting it... For the odd ball stuff that I do, the VERY sharp edge and "no-catch" shape get me into smaller, deeper vases... They also let me hollow irregular and cracked pieces of ironwood with a light and precision touch that I just can't produce with standard turning tools.. Cracks and holes in the interior of hollow stuff that used to clunk and fragment just produce a "click" as they're cut with the carbide..

Downside: $26 bucks for a replacement head and being carbide, it's very easy to ruin one by contact with metal, suck as lathe beds or ceramic tile floors...... DAMHINT

It's not an all-purpose tool... In most cases, a sharp bowl gouge or scraper will remove material as well and much faster..

mac

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Hi, Arch.

First of all, good to see you posting again.

I love a good tool, and that extends to my personal knives, whether in my pocket, camping, or in the kitchen.

Powder steels and micro carbide mixes in woodturning are coming late to the party when you consider what has been going on in the knife world for a while.

Carbide steels and their value/use is a COMPLEX issue that involves not only steel formulation itself, but heat treating, geometry of the cutting edge, specific performance expectations, etc.

While it isn't searchable from the actual forum, Bladeforums.com is searchable from Google. It has more than one can digest in the way of information and debate on carbide steels. Not from local bar stool experts, either. Knife makers, heat treaters, steel manufacturers (like Sandvik and Crucible) participate in the melee.

In a nutshell, it seems to go along these lines. Each of the steels (some dubbed "super steels" like SV60, SV90 all have their specific uses. These uses and the value of the steel towards that use would be closely dictated by the needs of each user.

For example: Do you want a steel that sharpens easily, but doesn't hold an edge as well? Do you want a hard steel that is hard to sharpen but holds a working edge for a really long time? Some don't mind extra trips to sharpen (whether a turning tool or a knife) and some don't need the extra hard steel because they don't use their tools that hard.

My new work knife is a Kershaw Scallion in S110V stainless. It is considered by most at this time to be the best of newer super steels. Most folks I have talked to are unwilling to try this steel as it has been deemed "too hard" to sharpen correctly.

I have not only reprofiled this knife's cutting edge, but now can resharpen in just a couple of minutes.

The upside of this steel: It >>is

Hello Arch,

I'm not an expert on steels, however, I've found the carbide tools produced by Mike Hunter (the Hunter tools), Jack McDaniels (the Eliminator), and Vermec in Australia all work extremely well when cutting end grain. When put in a stabalized boring bar like the Hunter/ Jamieson cutters they work well on both end grain and side grain. When testing them, I've turned complete bowls with them. A bowl gouge is faster when roughing out the bowl, but it is hard to beat the finish the carbide cutters are leaving, especially on end grain. I actually used the Hunter tool to turn a spindle, but couldn't seem to make a neat V-groove. The only carbide cutter I've had to replace so far was on a tool that I took to a sawdust session and let everyone try. People tended to throw the tool down on the table after trying it and the cutter had numerous nicks in the edge when I returned home.

Fred Holder

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Robert,

My other hobby is knife making and I can't agree with you more. Only in woodturning business tool makers sell you a tool with overpriced mystery "nano carbide cutter with special coating". No other industry that deals with cutting tool does that. I can't imagine someone selling you $200 knife with "undisclosed" steel. He would not sell a single knife. We, the buyers and users deserve to know what exactly we are buying and using.

Sooner or later people in woodturning we'll find out all about carbide cutters manufacturer/distributors, what carbide cutters are good for wood turning and where you can buy them much cheaper Only then woodturning tool makers will be forced to disclose carbide type, cutter's brand, etc. to show that they are using quality cutters and we'll see more reasonable prices(not 300% markup )

Alex

I absolutely could not agree with you more. And that again is my point as well, that the makers of these tools are preying on the lack of sophistication of the woodturning community.

So many of the cutters look like the Kennametal cutters that I have my own strong suspicions about whether the suppliers of these discs and other bits do anything at all to them. I am thinking the just put them in a box and ship them. Sure, good work if you can get it, but at those prices it seems that sooner or later folks will catch on.

So what kind of knives are you making, Alex? I made three or four fixed blades - it's too much work for me!

Robert

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Robert,

My other hobby is knife making and I can't agree with you more. Only in woodturning business tool makers sell you a tool with overpriced mystery "nano carbide cutter with special coating". No other industry that deals with cutting tool does that.

Really? Try the metal working industry. Go ask Kennemetal what is in their inserts. They won't tell you. Niether will any other manufacturer. They will, however, refer you to their application engineers that will recomend a insert for your use.

Same with saw blades and router bits.. They just say "carbide" and work, so it's all good..

I didn't buy the Eliminator for the nano-whatever, I bought it because a carbide tool makes sense for the stuff I turn.. I'd like to see the cutters come down in price, but OTOH, $24 is do-able for me and more than justified by the savings of production time and hassle of stopping the turning to go sharpen tools every 5 minutes..

I've been thinking of adding a Hunter swan neck tool to my arsenal, but I'm waiting to see if cutters come down in price as more folks start using them.. If not a price reduction, I'd like to at least see a discount on multiple cutters.. YMWV

mac

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Carbide strength runs in numbers - for wood it is typically 2. Typical metal products is around 6. The metal carbide stands up to silica better. High end wood saws are starting to use 6 and state so. They can be smaller and last longer.

If you see use of triangles and squares in neck tools - they are metal based inserts. Sold in boxes of 10 typically.

I mill and cut metal as well as wood so my shop has a breath of stuff.

Mart> >