Some problems with my first vase

I found an unidentified root in the road (it is light colored, but turns yellow brown about a day after being cut; anything jump to mind?) and decided to make my first vase. It is about 4" diameter and 8" high. I ran into three problems.

1) I could only manage to hollow out about 5.5". And even then I left a little uvula in the middle that I couldn't get out noway. I don't think I can go deeper than 5.5", but how do you get the center part out?

2) I had to leave most of it rough inside because I couldn't manipulate a tool in there, and certainly couldn't get sandpaper in. Any tricks here?

3) I nearly lost it because the bottom became extremely uneven when it dried. I did the best I could to get it back on the chuck square, but it wobbled and I had to take more off the outside to get it round than anticipated. I almost ran out of material. How does one handle that properly? I am not sure a chuck (if I had one) would have helped, because the top probably wasn't square either.

On the whole it turned out nicely though.

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Reply to
Toller
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little uvula in the middle that I couldn't >get out noway. I don't think I can go deeper than 5.5", >but how do you get the center part out?

You need a surprisingly substantial tool to hollow 5.5" deep in a vase. You didn't say what type of tool you were using, or why it or you wouldn't go past 5.5"

Are you end grain turning (grain parallel with the ways) or are you bowl grain turning (grain at 90 degrees) to the ways? This would also make a difference in the tool selection and capability.

Until I was comfortable (OK, sometimes even now...) with my gouges I used to use my 1/2" X 1" round nose scraper to nibble off that little cone.

tool in there, and certainly couldn't >get sandpaper in. Any tricks here?

If it is a vase, you should be able to hold sandpaper in your hands it if it is 4" across and only 5.5" deep. If that isn't comfortable for you, you can use differnet pliers (I use 12' curved brake pliers), holders, and homemade gizmos to get the paper to the wood.

dried. I did the best I could to get it >back on the chuck square, but it wobbled and I had to >take more off the outside to get it round than

Very typical. As the general rule of thumb goes, you want to cut to about 10% of your final thickness. I am more generous than that, but that 10% allows for radial movement which throws the piece off it axis of balance when drying. I try to turn as closely as I can to the final shape stopping at my 10% or so and cut the surface almost as finely as I would before final sanding when finishing the piece.

But no matter what, when you dry, you should plan to rebalance the piece when you re-mount.

But looking at your piece and reviewing your dimensions, you have some other challenges that you will have to master to get things going in the right direction.

First, a knotty piece of wood like you used, full of occlusions and twisty grain will never dry perfectly. The more screwed up a piece of wood actually is makes it more valuable to us woodturners, right? So that will take some practice and experience from you to make the call on how close to cut one of these pieces when taking it off the lathe to further dry. This is one I would have stopped at about 25% of final thickness and just let it dry longer.

Second, you created a recipe of hardship for yourself when you hollowed 2/3 of the way down and quit. The wood will dry in a drastically uneven fashion when parts of it are 1/4 thick (the sides) and other parts (the base) is about 3" thick. It simply cannot dry the same way, or react the same way with two huge differences like that in thickness.

Think about this: The sides can expulse water from both sides making them dry faster, and more evenly on a smaller thicknes of material which will give smaller movement. On the solild mass you left on the base, the water can only leave on the perimeter, leaving the inside green until it finally dries from the outside in. This can take a long time and since it is a greater mass of wood fiber and water drying from one side only, the drying process with distort the wood much more than an even, two sided drying.

That's my 0.02.

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

It is end grain, for the most part. I suppose the grain was really going every which way. I used the tool that has a little carbide disk on the end of it. Works wonderfully; I don't think I could have gotten a gouge in half that far, but it is only about 6" long, so there isn't anyway to go deeper. I tried every tool I had; between not being able to see what I was doing, and having the support 6" away, I just couldn't get any action on the little cone.

That makes sense; the butt was considerably thicker after drying. So, I should restrict myself to 6" vases until I get better tools?

Reply to
Toller

Hello Toller,

The rule of thumb for hollowing is not to extend the tool over the tool rest more than 20 percent of its length. For the 5.5" of hollowing you needed a tool that was almost 30 inches long.

If the tool you are using is the Hunter Tool with the carbide cutter, you should be able to get rid of that little nub in the center by bringing the tool up flat at the center and slowly slice away the nub a bit at a time. Your tool will try to dodge one way or the other. But tru to keep it on centr and below the end of the nub, then lever down on your handle and slice off a bit. Repeat this again and again until you've eliminated the nub.

Good luck and keep trying. Let every piece be an experience from which you can learn something.

Fred Holder

Reply to
Fred Holder

Then how do you do it? A 30" tool?! I was able to get the hunter to work well, but couldn't get a scraper to much of anything, to either clean up the sides or go after the center thing.

Reply to
Toller

Just a thought, here. There are a lot of good books and videos out there. Some in your local library, and some at Barnes and Noble. There are even some interesting videos on turning at YouTube.

Best of all, if you have time, you should see if you have a local turning club. For several years out club was a great place to learn from each other about techniques and methods as well as hearing about practical experience with certain tools.

A good club could really help you learn faster and better, and really cut down on your frustration.

Hang in there, man.

Ditto!

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

That is an entirely reasonable idea; it is certainly easier to give advice when you can hold the problem in your hands and show a solution. I may have to do it...

Reply to
Toller

Fred is speaking of overhang over the rest. Depending on the size of the opening you may be able to angle your regular rest to get support inside the box. There are also special rests for box scrapers which will extend inside real well. As far as tool length, it should be as Lincoln's legs, long enough to reach the ground (bottom). Leverage will tell you how aggressive you can be.

For straight sides like you have in the picture, you can certainly use a gouge or Darrell's favorite, an Oland tool, to shave the sides.

My "pointy" gouge is for practical purposes an Oland with a flute ground from a "detail" gouge. it makes short work of interiors, sweeping in to out and out to in, including shaving out the point. I use a termite to trim end grain at the bottom, because I stink with a scraper.

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You can also bottom with a nice fingernailed gouge, setting up as if you were boring with a D bit and curling the shavings out. At 6", you may find that's not possible, because the ferrule's riding the rest.

Reply to
George

SNIP

George - I looked at your pics. How big is that bit in your Oland tool? I have made one that I like according to Darrell's page, and it cerainly has its uses. But my biggest bit is 3/16". The one you have looks quite a bit bigger.

In hollowing a shape like Toller's, I actually use a 3/8" bowl gouge that has a flute so shallow that it looks like a spindle gouge. But I put a long grind with a blunt nose on it that Phil Brennion showed us at one of his demos. Using it for end turning, I can get almost 6 inches in with really light shaving cuts in green woods.

Now that I had to laugh at. I have looked at some of the pics you have posted in the past, and with the stuff you are turning I would never have believed that one.

I am sure you know that there is a movement afoot (Mike Darlow was lementing this a few months ago in - I think- Woodturning Design) to teach scraping for all manner of processes as it is easier to teach than proper gouge usage.

Personally, I don't care how the wood leaves the piece as long as it is gone.

Robert

Reply to
nailshooter41

Robert, I posted some finished flatwork (Jakes Chairs) on my index page. A couple of the guys on the wreck say they can't see the pic but it works fine in FF, NS & Opera of relatively recent vintage.

Bill

Reply to
BillinDetroit

Oh ... and MSIE, also.

I dunno where they went or how they got there.

Bill

Reply to
BillinDetroit

As indicated, it's a detail gouge - Hamlet, I believe, ground back to the purpose. This one's a half-incher, as memory serves, while I have a quarter and one even smaller. Only kind of "hollow form" I regularly make is an ornament, and I use them for hauling the trash because they clear their waste.

Scraping is cutting at a high angle in my lexicon, and in the bottom of a box, especially one with a fairly narrow opening, you can't get the required angle to do the job right. I prefer to cut at a low angle, using my tools firmly anchored to the rest with overhand grips, a technique which, in the majority of cases would keep people from having to resort to a scraper. Probably because they use the scraper firmly anchored and cutting so the wood protests least - same as I with the gouge. I also have a steady, which allows me to use both hands on the gouge rather than one for the piece and one for the tool. Big help.

Not really. Kids seemed to understand that the cut with the least hand pressure was not only easier on them, but on the wood. Even the big "jock" types were patient enough to tolerate the old man reaching around and guiding with hands on hands until they got it.

Reply to
George

a quick way to get that little nub out is a forstner bit mounted in your tailstock with a drill chuck

Reply to
william kossack

Then, all you have to do is get the friggin' hole from the point of the forstner bit smoothed out... BTDT got the t-shirt..

Being a devout coward, I use the largest, thickest round nose scraper that will fit in the opening to smooth the bottom.. If I have to, I'll use my round side-scraper, but a full round nose is a lot more stable and safer, IMO...

(Counting fingers and enjoying getting to 10)

mac

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Reply to
mac davis

Ah but when the vase is say 10 inches deep and the opening only an inch wide how do you get a scraper in there? The idea is to use the forstner bit to take out the bulk of the cone leaving something that can be easily taken care of with what ever hollowing tool you use

Reply to
william kossack

I don't do many narrow opening things, especially that deep, but at an inch wide and 10 inches deep, I don't think my forstner bits would reach without some kind of extension..

If it was 1" x 4" or so, I'd normally do the "hollowing" with a forstner bit from the beginning and clean up the bottom with the Termite.. I've also got a couple of dowels in different diameters with rounded ends and a split for sand paper, so I can get into bud vases and things and sand the bottom..

In reality, if I was turning something with a 1" hole that was 10" deep, I would be a lot more concerned with the sides for 6 or 7" then the bottom... If they want to use a flash light to check if the bottom of the hole is nicely sanded, they aren't going to buy anything.. lol

mac

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Reply to
mac davis

I keep a flashlight handy for just that reason.

Reply to
william kossack

seems like we're all just messin around, waiting for someone to invent a forstner bit set with 3", 4", 5", 6" bits. That would make a quick job of straight hollowing!

Reply to
Max63

umm... To check holes in things before you buy them? roflmao

mac

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Reply to
mac davis

Nah.... that would be like turning bowls on a CNC lathe... I don't do hollow forms, but I appreciate the skill that goes into them...

I wouldn't be as impressed with them if they were hollowed by some expanding blade tool like a brake hone, that took the skill out of it..

mac

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Reply to
mac davis

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