Suggestions for Holly

Cut and sticker as fast as possible. Remove discolored pieces to separate area ASAP, fungal transfer like spalting. Use citric acid - lemon juice to bleach. Holly is extremely sensitive to iron stain, avoid iron and steel contact. Wash hands before handling, pay attention when working the wood to avoid hand residue transfer.

A few links supporting my experience with Holly.

I felled a 20ft high, 16in diameter tree affecting a neighbors fence last year and got a reasonable yield. None of it was as white as I can purchase but I use thin pieces for accents and with lemon bleaching it is usable.

My supplier must be getting Northern grown Holly because I don't get as drastic discolorations when working purchased vs. locally cut. (Or maybe the store's isn't even Holly. I been sold the "wrong" wood many times before. It can be difficult to determine species in small penblank or turning block sizes.)

Be careful with the citric acid. It can bleach other woods and can "bleed" into other woods when doing marquetry. Dry the bleached piece thoroughly before glue-up next to contrasting (dark) porous woods.

For tool stain transfer issues I use mineral oil on metal tool surfaces. This reduces/prevents rust and is easy to notice when it contacts your hands vs. iron transfer which just makes your hands look dirty. When/if your hands get oily, it reminds you to wash them before handling the workpiece.

I plan on doing some tests adding dry citric acid to the finish before applying. Citric acid is used regularly to neutralize and brighten exterior decking after chemical cleaners are used which darken the wood. It is also used in pulp and paper production as a whitener and neutralizer.

If you can't "fix" the problem, turn it into an opportunity and spalt it. Spalted Holly can be quite figurative, nearly burl-like vs. the more "waterspot stained" look of spalted maple, etc..

One of many wood picture identification sites on the web: My purchased Holly is as white as the pen blanks in the link above, although I noticed a few suppliers I've used in the past now present a tan picture for Holly . Just for fun. And one of my favorite wood artists, self taught, started by selling simple wood boxes at street fairs:

In message , Joe writes

Hi Joe, thanks for the reply

What a lot of useful information. Which has posed some more food for thought. I had already picked up on Holly taking iron stain from the hands, but that begged the question as to mount it which you have adequately anticipated.

Its interesting you use citric acid for bleaching the wood, I remember I used to use it for cleaning up old low value copper/bronze coins. But once I left them in a little too long and it ate through the coins. So would be interested in any recommended concentrations. Should it be brushed, wiped with a cloth, dipped, or misted using a plant sprayer.

Would applying citric acid mitigate later contamination?

With the risks of contamination is it advisable to completely seal the blank, and if so what with. I tend to use paraffin wax for sealing end grain of most blanks as it appears reasonably inert ( I have a large quantity left from the days I used to make candles), but what about the liquid based sealers, or even emulsion paint, or diluted PVA.

As to cutting I am sort of limited at present as my bandsaws will only cut just over 4 inches. I really need to get that bigger saw:) So they have been left in half rounds. Is leaving the bark on going to be an issue? How you handle the contamination risk from the blade as I can't see oiling it to be a good idea? Would it be a case of applying citric acid after cutting.

What about storage of blanks, are there other species they should be kept away from any other species?

I will probably have to look into some open plastic racking, as I can see a potential issue with the wire racking.

***Dry citric acid concentrations: Trial and Error, I usually go "too strong ~20%" as I often use it almost as a wipe on/off cleaner. Too high will break down wood Too low won't bleach adequately

***Would applying citric acid mitigate later contamination? Don't know. Possibly if it kills fungi, appears to stop spalted pieces from going to rot. Although I haven't done specific testing to determine this. If I have boards bandsawed from a spalted piece, clean and start working on a piece then leave it for a while. I've had the worked board ok and the remainder seem to continue to rot. This could just be an issue of concentration of fungi and original location of board within the tree/ log, i.e. the source direction of the fungal infection. The way I use it, it doesn't leave a film or seal to prevent further contamination. If I leave a tool on the board after treated it will stain, but the stain can be removed with a further treatment. For instance, if I get sloppy and get Paduak sawdust on a light board, say Aspen, I must quickly spray off as much as possible with an oil-less air compressor (airbrush compressor), then quickly wipe remaining off with a citric solution or it will stain permanently. I highly recommend two air compressors for a shop. Oil compressor for air tools and oil-less for cleaning, blowing the sawdust off yourself, cleaning dust masks, painting, sealing and any other liquid applications.

***Seal blanks? I only seal logs, never blanks. Although I do occasionally seal the ends of large cuts (2x8,4x4, etc.), but I do that to slow drying and prevent splitting not to mitigate discoloration. I use paraffin wax.

***Bark on? Don't know. May increase fungal activity. Not enough experience. I usually cut into as large as manageable pieces from tree, seal both ends and stack at least 1ft above ground for 1 season, 6-12 months, then cut to blanks at end of summer and move indoors for another 6-12 months or until dry.

***Contamination from blade? Quick wipe to clean board after cutting if needed, usually I wait and clean after final cut. I use Forest blades with dampeners and don't need to sand or scrape after cutting for flat cuts. My bandsaw (not mine, but same one) and lathe tooling don't stain. Hand transfer and leaving tools on top of boards is the main issue for me. I always oil all my blades anyway. But be careful with bandsaws, your drive wheel may have a rubber tire than won't like the oil, most are neoprene so they should take it. Make your own decision on this. Check with a lumber mill or other large bandsaw user, you'll find almost all oil the blades, but this does not always mean you should do the same thing on home/hobby equipment. I live near the coast, fog/rain, so inland operations may differ. The oil is to prevent rust not to mitigate staining. It is applied after cleaning the blades/tools with mineral spirits at the end of each days use. Again, do this on your own decision, some plastics and rubber don't like solvents. The wipe down at the end of the day keeps the shop clean and ready for precision work. I definitely will get staining between woods on the bandsaw if I don't clean the blade. Usually only on the first piece of light wood after an oily or dark wood. I often cut

Just a thought (from a beginner) relating to need for bigger band saw: Use a belt or disk sander or angle grinder with a 24 or 36 grit wheel. I often use a hatchet to trim the edges. Needs to be sharp. More spectacular when others are watching, but, no surprise, a lot more work.

Pete Stanaitis

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John wrote:

That really isn't the right tool for the job. I have a friend who was hit with a piece of broken grit wheel while cutting metal under tension. Not pleasant. If it went for the eye it could have gone right through his cheap plastic safety goggles. This one wasn't so lucky:

I don't consider myself an expert, but IMHO the band saw is one of the safest cutting tools in the shop: No kickback No flying bits of broken blade/grit wheel spinning at 4000rpm No chunks thrown forward to ricochet back at you If the blade brakes it just stops where it is

Find a local woodturning group, woodworkers group, shared shop space, or find a shop that will trade your turning or some of the wood for use of their bandsaw. You'll only need it for the big pieces and you can cut enough wood to turn for a month in a few hours of use.

Or get a chainsaw with a chain brake, still dangerous, but made for the task. Cheap, and you can upgrade to a chainsaw mill.

(Just for reference. Never used this one.) Don't know the manufacturer of the 36" one my neighbor has, but it works great for the task. He bought it cheap at a garage sale without the saw. I only use it to cut on-site, for most larger cuts I still use a friend's large bandsaw at his shop. Rarely needed, I don't often go over 12". You'll have plenty of chances in your life to hurt yourself using the right tools properly. I use abrasive wheels often, but if they break and hurt me, I want to know I wasn't at fault by doing something obviously not proper. Safety first.

Hello John and Joe,

This is a very nice discussion on the treatment of Holly wood. With your permission, I would like to publish this discussion in More Woodturning. May I have your permission? You can contact me at . If you don't get lost in the spam, I receive your e-mail. Or, you can simply respond with an ok to use here in this thread.

Fred Holder, More Woodturn> > > Just a thought (from a beginner) relating to need for bigger band saw:

lucky:

> > I don't consider myself an expert, but IMHO the band saw is one of the > safest cutting tools in the shop: > No kickback

mill.http://www.onlinetoolreviews.com/reviews/westfordmill.htm > (Just for reference. Never used this one.) > Don't know the manufacturer of the 36" one my neighbor has, but it works > great for the task. He bought it cheap at a garage sale without the saw. > I only use it to cut on-site, for most larger cuts I still use a friend's > large bandsaw at his shop. Rarely needed, I don't often go over 12". > > You'll have plenty of chances in your life to hurt yourself using the > right tools properly. I use abrasive wheels often, but if they break and > hurt me, I want to know I wasn't at fault by doing something obviously > not proper. Safety first.

I have no problem with any freely available use of any of my comments from rec.crafts.woodturning to be posted on

(no monies charged to view this info on your site). And/or you can just add a google link if you want to allow others to participate in the discussion easily. I am a hobbyist and do not consider myself an expert. I have not been trained or attended school for woodworking and my primary income is not from woodworking.

"Answers" I give are from personal experience and may result in damage or harm. Use at your own risk.

As with any suggestions from a web source, double check with other sources for a sanity check. Grammatical errors may be present in comments.

Assume all links are for reference only to clarify ideas unless specifically endorsed.

In message , Joe writes

Thanks for all the answers Joe, its taken me a while to assimilate them :)

I suspect also from what you say that each piece of wood adds to the equation, whatever the acid is doing it is doing it to something, and if there is less of that something, then the acid will have greater effect. I guess that the only information that may be obtained relating to that is does the concentration of this something variable dependant on height of trunk. I.e. Is it more concentrated at the base than top. Therefore concentration of citric acid should be less at top?

Have you tried using a microwave to kill the fungi?

I have several half rounds sealed on the endgrain to reduce splitting but I will have a look over the next year to see if it has helped reduce discoloration.

I will see what happens with my blanks, and if I see any issues of fungal activity around the bark will report back

In a way I guess there is even a risk of contamination from the original chainsaw used to fell the tree. I wonder if the risk of contamination is less the closer it is to the time the tree is cut

At present we have all the wood in separate stack, except for the pick and mix ( those I don't know what they are) but I can see inevitably some day the stacks will get closer together , so need to plan ahead. Maybe this is part of the reason why I have seen in some stores blanks completely encased in paraffin wax( other reasons I can see are to prevent moisture absorption or further drying, and to make the grain stand out).

Sounds like my storage, dark cellar nice airflow,

In message , Joe writes

Sounds like a great idea to me. You can follow all the theories in the world, but there's nothing like hearing about it from someone who has experienced it

***Is it more concentrated at the base than top. Therefore concentration of citric acid should be less at top? I look at it more of damage vs. effect. The softer or more porous (or just more affected) need less concentration. Otherwise, I'd go as high as possible for maximum effect. Too high and you can see the damage with a microscope, even a magnifying glass. I looking for maximum bleaching with minimum fiber damage. Porosity vs. location, I'd expect more differences with heartwood vs. sapwood than top to bottom, although at the extremes new growth vs. old growth could definitely be different.

***Have you tried using a microwave to kill the fungi? No, only for drying and killing bugs/worms. Sounds reasonable. I'll give it a try for some of my spalted maple. Research implies many fungi, including blue fungi, can be killed by

I have a large drying oven I use for seashells and often use this instead because you can control humidity while raising heat. Used to prep boards for bending and to kill bugs in thick pieces or to control drying evenly. Microwave sometimes splits blanks because of hot spots and it's difficult to reach and hold a specific temperature. i.e. kill the bugs without drying. Another idea I've played with is UV for bleaching, not cleaning. Apply a frisket or stencil and use strong UV to bleach a pattern before applying finish -think sandblasting with light. It works great with dark woods. Used in combination with burnishing to achieve a palette on one board, great for 3D optical and depth illusions. I've wondered what affect shortwave UV (dangerous) or high intensity longwave UV might be able to achieve. As with most processes, too much often causes damage instead of working better.

Hot sand burnishing

Another idea I want to try sometime is fuming. Just for fun, this machine could do incredible CNC burnishing, check out the toast: