Turned Piece The End Point OR A Step To The End Point?

I see many evolutions to my turning, Charlie, but the one that relates to your topic (I think) in that as I try more "artsy" stuff, I'm suddenly doing hand work on and off the lathe.. On ironwood, especially, you have a choice of very round and smooth, or rugged and jagged... If you want it rugged, there's only so much that can be done on the lathe and a lot of power sanding, wire brushing and hand sanding/polishing that just can't be done while it's turning..

What sort of bothers me is that I'm starting to do a few pieces that look a little like the stuff in turning magazines that I shunned in the past as more carving than turning... It's kind of like the first time that you yell at your kids and think "Oh shit, I'm becoming my dad"....

mac

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Charlie, this whole question has been done over so many times and on so many different forums it is difficult to add anything new. Personally when a Raffan bowl is held up against a Bin Pho piece I know which one I prefer. It has been said many times that if the form is good then decoration of any sort only adds. If that is the extra Buzz then it doesn't work for me. I find it very hard to look past the decorations and find the Buzz in the form or the wood. I tried to address the modern concept of surface embellishment at our Guild show and tell one week. I showed and antique 14" butter bowl that I have owned for about 30 years, purchased prior to my turning addiction. My question to the members was that this bowl has tool marks both inside and outside. They are in the form of very fine beads about 1/16" in size and appear to be the finish cut from a tool either hand held or post mounted. Today it would probably be unacceptable because it wasn't smooth and lustrous. Back then it was an every day kitchen user. The amount of crud that collected in those minute grooves is still evident. So what brought about the new order of finish? Aesthetics? Cleanliness? Tactile BUZZ? Why do we now go back and do surface treatments on bowls that are just to be looked at and serve no practical use. Beats me! The members I showed this to were also unable to give any reasons either. So I have to say that all this comes down to is fashion and what is considered "up-market" and can hopefully fetch a higher price. The only BUZZ from most of it is a green one. Is it art or artistic? Don't even want to go there. My $.02 worth.

When I am bored with turning, I go to one of my other hobbies. I cook a lot... I mean a lot. Everything from fancy foods to good Texas barbecue. I do a lot of flat (wood) work and finishing/refinishing in my business. All of those things take a lot of practice and work. The buzz does indeed go away for me when I start hearing "The Wood On The Lathe Goes Round and Round" to the tune of "The Wheels on The Bus".

My next endeavor may be chip carving, as I have a truly gifted artist that I know that needs some help with some casework assembly and finish. He does a lot of custom carving for churches, assembly halls, etc. and his work is fantastic. I will try to trade out some of my time for lessons as he gets a pretty penny for his instruction time (if he has any). Guaranteed that the lathe will sit idle if he will teach me his methods. After all, I only have so much free time... and gotta stretch those skills.

I turn all manner of things, and love to try new things. But in the end, all projects that come off the lathe are at least partly round if not coencentric. I have a low threshold of boredom, and I usually turn like a maniac for a few months a year, then I do other things. I "rediscover" woodturning, and off I go again.

I lose interest in turning from time to time as there has become an accepted "norm" for appearance. Anyone that frequents WoodCentral can attest to that. "Make that foot smaller" or "curve that bottom more" or "that would have looked better buffed" are all frequent comments. Along with the commentary of "you should pick up soandso's book as he explains how to do just that" and "look what I did, it isn't as good as Cindy, but I am still trying".

They WANT all of their different pieces to conform to the norm of that group. They turn out some really nice pieces and some excellent work. But it all kind of looks the same to me with just a few exceptions.

Seems like everyone wants to turn thin. Everyone wants to have a finish so colored and polished that the piece looks like it belongs in a car show, not a wood turning venue. Most turn Ming dynasty shaped vases, shaker style bowls, (natural edge seems to have fallen out of favor), Egyptian or Navajo shapes. Most oil and buff, all using the exact same oil, the exact same method, and they are proud to write that they conformed to the letter.

Worse, so many strive to make a piece that looks >>exactly

Ok, Robert.. The doctor is in... I can help!

Stop listening and reading on what is in and have fun...

I turn at least 10 or 15 pieces a week... not because I have to, but I love turning.. I sort of pride myself on NOT having a style or specialty... I just play and experiment and sometimes the stuff sells..

I've been saying for a lot of years that if turning ever stops being fun, I'll quit... Hasn't happened yet and I still wake up every morning thinking about turning...

I've sold quite a few pieces and no one has ever measured wall thickness or any of the 100's of things that folks say make "quality" turnings.. My bottom line is that turners are NOT my market so I don't try to make them happy.. Folks buy my stuff because it makes them feel good or they think it's "pretty".. they could care less about how it's made, whether it fits some groups specifications, etc..

mac

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Hi charlie, Thanks for explaining what a "Krenovian" is. I dislike eponyms and never use them. They send me to Webster! :)

That turned wood is becoming popular among turners to use as a mere 'canvas' or 'case' to make beautiful objects on or out of is not to worry. In woodturning what was outrageous last year is old hat this year. Piercing a vase, painting a plate, plaiting a platter or burning a bowl was once either awful or avant garde according to the moment. Now these techniques are common place and are becoming a mere ground or wash to prepare the canvas (wood) for the real embellishment to come.

I ask you, "Where will it all end"? I suspect that "this too will pass" and the day will come when much of what's again considered our best work will cllimb down from the gallery shelf and go back home. Wood bowls will once again hold lettuce, wood candle sticks will hold candles and wood pepper mills will again produce the wonderful aroma of freshly ground pepper corns on that lettuce. Past really is prologue, just you wait and see, Mr. & Ms. current famous artist.

I hope that happy day doesn't happen too soon. I enjoy seeing the envelope pushed as far as it can go and I can't wait to see what's beyond the present popularity of piercing, cutting up, reassembling and general mayhem. For now and for me whatever becomes this year's leading edge beats looking at another pic of a maple bowl, no matter how much knee- kick keening and praise it engenders. Of course my opinions re woodturning and my actual turnings might resemble a chameleon. :)

Handsome exposed grain, symmetrical forms, shiny surfaces and skinny walls will rise again, but I hope not just yet.

Why not enjoy going to the otherside of the the hill Charlie? IMHO the buzz will be there when you get back and you will have had the fun of turning to a different drummer. Since you asked, the buzz is always there waiting for me as is the buzz of mixing metaphors and the occasional martini. I just hope Robert doesn't drizzle pretty sauces and curled radishes all over the food and plates when he cooks fancy. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

Hi, mac. Not sure how you got the impression that I am worried about conforming to today's current style. Maybe you skimmed a bit fast?

build to plans enough that I don't want to unless I have to.

and

if it something that they like.

I was trying to make the point that as long the turner is happy, it doesn't matter what they turn. And as for me, I only turn what I want, and don't care one whit about the accepted norm. I sell enough turned projects to buy new gouges, finshing material, sandpaper, and an occasional exotic piece of wood.

This is a hobby, and I have no one to impress. If others like my work, of course I am pleased. But if they don't, it doesn't matter to me unless they are a paying client. I have made my money with my hands long enough to know you simply won't please everyone no matter what you do.

And I have been turning long enough to see how turning styles and shapes change over a period of time.

Being bored with turning isn't a statement that I have learned all there is to learn on the lathe. Not at all; I could always learn new techniques, the use of new tools and certainly how to perform certain operations better. But I have found that if I give any of my hobbies a rest from time to time, I enjoy them more when I come back to them.

For me there is so much to learn and enjoy, and so little time to do it all...

Robert

Ok.. I misunderstood, for sure..

On 1st reading, it seemed to me that you were tired of trying to conform.. I'm very glad that I was wrong about you! ;-]

mac

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SNIP

Nailed it! Spot on!

I couldn't agree more. I can see a time when I will be watching the guru of the day espousing just that.

**Imagine two men in a quiet studio/shop, sitting quietly talking about woodturning. One is a bespectacled almost 40 something, in comfortable clothes and needing a haircut - or at least a brush - talking in a soft, patient voice. The other is a woodturner that has a successful TV show on how to turn, making him an expert/critic**

"You see, you get a sense of the original intent of a vessel when holding this piece".

"How so?"

"Well, (says the young man in the khaki pants and beard), I get an almost organic feel in its simplicity. Without any decorations of super polished finish, one is given the message that this bowl could actually be used".

"Astonishing... innovative...."

"This piece is light years ahead of its time, and yet has the ability to reach back over the centuries to the aritsans of the past, channeling their intense desire for purity of form".

"Wow..." says the showman/critic. "I ALMOST mistook it for a bowl, similar to the one I ate my salad from last night. Looks like we have something else to sell!"

Then the herd will move towards more simple, utility shapes, and will use natural oils to finish. They will call themselves traditionalists.

And many of us will be quietly amused.

Robert

Having gone through this thread again I'm still in a quandry.

I guess my underlying question is "To What End?" Fleshed out some - What am I trying to accomplish with a specific turning?

If the answer is to make a functional piece - that is to say - will actually be used - to hold something, then I head in one direction. The function, to a large extent, dictates the wood, the approximate size and shape and maybe the finish. The rest is up to me - proportions, details like beads and coves that may or may not serve a purpose other than to hopefully add visual interest to the object, etc. But there's always that question in the back of my mind - "Why the hell don't I do this (or these) things on a wheel - out of clay?"

Think about it. The only reason functional things were turned out of wood was that's what WAS AVAILABLE. If it had been just as easy to make the item in fired, and maybe glazed, ceramic, or better yet, metal - well wood would be for building - and burning.

If, on the other hand, the answer to WHY is to attempt to express an idea or feeling - then the wood and the process is merely the medium and method of doing so. That may involve a nod to function but not a strict adherance to ALL the functional constraints.

THAT may be where craft and art begin to diverge

- different intents.

Then there's what I find myself often doing - starting with "I wonder if I can . . ." or "What if I . . ." Turning stops being a means to an end, but rather just a means

- with no particular end in mind.

I think of turning like visiting an interesting city. I could take a group tour and see all the Post Card Sites/Sights - in Two Glorious, Fun Filled Days/Daze. Or I might have a friend there and get a local's perspective of the place - going to Off The Tour Route places. Or, I could just find a hotel and start wandering around the immediate vicinity, or maybe hop on the metro, get off at a random stop and explore that area. This last one takes a little bit more time - maybe a week rather than two or three days. But I've met some really interesting people and seen some really interesting things that aren't in any Tour Books or glossy magazine articles this way.

I never actually got into the Louvre - but I found a fascinating little street of shops with musical instruments - and a little hole in the wall store that specialized in just paper - all kinds of interesting paper. And I got to know the Tobaccoist on the corner and an artist from Sierra Leon whose father was a lawyer and his mother was a doctor. He was finishing the clay for a very large casting he was commissioned to do

- for someone's house - in The Hamptons. And I learned a little about the skating subculture that hang out and skate on the little street in front of Notre Dame - after hours of course - starting around

9 or 10 pm and going 'til all hours.

As usual, I've wandered off - which, it turns out, is how I approach turning - often beginning over here and ending up way the hell over there, sometimes lost, some times intrigued, sometimes surprised and sometimes having wasted some time and some wood. Along the way there seems to always be an endorphin buzz and occassionaly a moment or two when things go just so. Sometimes before I turn off the lights I'm amazed that something nice has resulted and that I was fortunate enough to have had a role in its coming into being.

I'll probably head over the next hill and see what happens. But' I'm drawing The Line at glitter and DAY-GLO and decopauge! That way lies madness

- or boredom.

charlie b

Or, minus a few thousand words.. Because it feels good and you like to turn wood, maybe?

mac

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All depends on who you are, and what you want to make! There are

*always* "Zen Moments" with whatever you're doing. I've found that combining metal and wood is more or less my favorite thing to do- sure, it may take a little more time and tooling, but setting the grain of the wood off against a smooth, clean sweep of shiny brass or steel is a thing of beauty. Might not hurt to add glass into the mix one of these days, but I'm holding off because I'm not that eager to make an annealing oven right now.

Like I said, it all depends on who you are- but, I've found that trade, craft, and art are like languages. While it may seem like it would be hard to take on several new ones at once, if you try it, it actually turns out that every new skill adds to your understanding of the ones you already have, and eventually, you begin to see the bones of how they all work and it's much easier to do many things well than it is to labor at one simple task with a more limited understanding.

As an example of that somewhat poorly-expressed idea, when I was in school, I studied both French and Spanish. I was continually asked how I could manage to do that, but it's actually very simple- both languages come from a common root (Latin) and they share many similarities not only in grammatical structure, but also have many roots in common when learning the verbs. So, while exploring each with different teachers, I learned at least two approaches for each concept rather than a single viewpoint. What that meant in practice was that if one teacher was not very good at explaining how some aspect of a particular construction worked, and resorted to forcing us to memorize the concept by brute force, there was still a chance of understanding the reasoning behind the method in the other. It works the same with wood and metal, or multi-axis and single-axis turning, or any number of other disciplines that may seem to be different, but are actually much more similar than they appear at first.

I don't give a tuppeny damn what other "turners " think of the stuff I make. I do it for my own amusement, and there's always somebody who likes it, and takes it home with them. If there wasn't I'd not be able to get on the drive, never mind in the garage. The "That's two bowls, one on the inside and one on the outside" type of comments from alleged experts soon put me off attending local woodturning groups.If I wanted perfect inside, outside symmetry, I'd buy Wedgewood china and forget about wood.. Turn what you like and enjoy it is my motto. xx

There is some benefit to getting feedback on pieces from more experienced turners. When I turn a piece and something doesn't look quite right but I can't put my finger on why - another set of eyes and another perspective can be helpful.

Turning is The Wild West of woodworking, and unlike "flat work", there are almost limitless possibilities - and just as many ways of getting there. As a result, while some may try and impose DOGMA, there are just too many anarchist turners who go their own way - and often inspire others to do the same. Alas, The Life Of Brian (see Montey Python) Syndrome, "Tells Us What To Do (and how to do it) - Master!" kicks in and some folks want to become Apostles (read "followers of") - which leads to many turning "churches" and all that goes with them (Thou Shalt & Thou Shalt Not, MINE is the ONLY TRUE WAY).

So many turners are trending towards "multi-media" pieces and that's a good thing if it permits them to make an idea or feeling into an object others can see and perhaps feel something other than "oh look - wood (fill in the blank)". While I personally don't find a bandsawn chunk of wood that's been charred, a concave hemisphere turned into a facet on the charred chunk of wood - that's been painted bright RED! - it did provoke a response - UGHHH! I prefer things that have an interesting first impression followed by a lot closer look and some thinking. And if it brings a smile - even better. AND

- if it gets me to want to try and figure out how the hell it was done . . .

I've ordered a MiniMonster captured hollowing systems that may change what I turn and having access to a laser engraver/cutter opens up some possibiiies.

The wonderful thing about turning is there are so many possibilities and so many ways to get there - and half the fun is discovering.

charlie b