Authoritative sources?!

is

Higs, Katherine (who has found more errors than she cares to mention in various books)

I am the last person who trusts a book as is, All my students always heard from me the sentence the 1 book says x 1 book says Y 1 book says Z,,,,, But i also had some wonderful guides, as to how to check facts , possibilities etc,,,, From Various professional people , and last and not least from my studies as Librarian, as material collector etc, and before when i did social work and checked houses and family backgrounds. Yes you can trust your own measurements for your Reserach , BUT WHEN DOING SO YOU HAVE TO SAY , I did it and you have to write I am a man of the 2Oth century , you are stronger physicly than women in different times ,,, about which you want to make a point,,,, YOU CAN NOT , Can NOT know exactly imitate the strength of a woman in those trimes , Nore can you KNOW for sure who knitted or didn`t knit with a Sheath , there are places where knittes [ mainly MEN ] go with the thread over their shoulders and other systems ,,, Even when YOU THINK you are sure you have to write i assume according to my measurements in THIS time ,,,, mirjam

is

Gladys Thompson had to deal with editors who insisted, for the first edition, that her round-knitted patterns be rewritten to be flat-knitted. This was corrected in later editions, but who knows how much was left out? Even in the 1970s, knitting book authors had to deal with editors who prevented them from putting in the scholarly citations that would have supported what seem to be bald statements of opinion. I've been told that Mary Thomas also was told that if she insisted on putting in the sources, the book would not be published!

The errors are also not necessarily her fault. I agree there are several significant ones - I haven't knitted the patterns, but I can tell when a graph is not the right one for the photograph it supposedly links to. That is the fault of the copy-editor and the publisher, who wouldn't spend the money to have them corrected.

These books all predate Bishop Rutt's book. He raised the standard for scholarly research on knitting even higher than Mary Wright did, but he, too, never used a knitting sheath. His book has some errors, too. Some of them are because the statements were correct according to what was known at the time, but further archaeological discoveries have changed what is now known. That does not mean that his book is not still an authoritative source; it means that all such books must be read with an understanding of _when_ they were written, and some appreciation that any scholarly text will be outdated by new information.

Her discussion is still accurate for the records cited. A record that proves how many sweaters a woman could knit and sell in a given period of time is accurate regardless of how badly that woman's wrists ached at the end of the day. People's reminiscences of fingers turning white from the pressure of the yarn and bleeding from abrasion by needle points are all evidence of how much effort it took to knit that fast.

That is a massive overstatement. Mary Wright wrote what was the most scholarly existing book on knitting history before Bishop Rutt published his work, and most of her work is verifiable. In quoting that particular statement, which I believe to be legend, she quoted what was believed to be true at the time she wrote.

I have spent some time trying to check some of Mary Thomas's statements, and so far, most of them have some support. For instance, the casual aside about the shepherds of Landes, in the south of France, who knitted standing on stilts watching their sheep - that seemed like folklore, but in fact there are photographs as well as many drawings of the knitting shepherds on their stilts. Some of them are now online at the New York Public Library's website.

I would like to read your reasoning for that observation.

The "Coptic" socks were not recognized as nalbinding until some fifty-odd years after Mary Thomas wrote. She quoted the authorities of the time. When dealing with Egyptian nalbinding, the stitch is identical to a crossed knit stitch; the only way to prove one form or the other is to find an error in the work of a type which definitely can only be made with one technique.

=Tamar

HURRAY tto TAMAR HURRAY HURRAY

I will strat from the `coptic socks ` ,,, In Metzada in Israel , some socks were found which were dated to before conquest of the Roman Legion , the year 73. the socks were naaldbound in cotton, usually `off white` and with an odd blue line. They have a Toe , as most people in those trimes wore toe sandals. Dr Abigail Sheffer and another woman archeologist got the job to reproduce a similar sock, and became very expert in doing it , In fact i talked with Dr Sheffer 2months ago anout another matter and she said she could teach me naaldbounding if i am interesred. When i studied in Boston University, Barabara Shawcroft , introduced us to naaldbinding. I have touched one of those OLD socks,,,,

As i am proofreading catalogs and books, and have quite some aquaintnaces who wrote/are writing researchers , and as Israel has quite some Archeological digs.And as an Ex librarian who helped many researcheres i am quite aware of how value one should give to written material. i Taught students that they should [ if possible] read more than one source. Than when they read the book[s], that should compare sources [ see if books use same or different bibliography]. Every text about Historical afcts should be read with some reservation ,,, But we also can check part of the facts, knitting 200 stitches a minute ?????????????Not that it matters to me, but i have heard they do competions like that now adays , does any one know How many stitches the Fastest Modern Knitter has done ??? We also have to remember that people were Shorter , in former centuries. Antiques clothes conservators will tell you that as fact. Pattern had to be enlarged , for the use of contemporary actors. People also lived less -hence women had shorter span of life to make more sweaters and some male sweaters were handed down from fathers to sons. This are all facts that ONE HAS to tkae into account when one assumes the role of History Teacher , and one wants to teach us HOW IT WAS DONE So many years ago. Quality of wool , materials available , illneses people suffered from ... so many factors the writer just overlooks , or doesn`t take into consideration ,, thank you Tamar for your Learned letter. mirjam

Has that find been published yet? I'd love to be able to recommend a book or article to others who are interested.

There are frequent national competitions, and international ones as well. Right now, I believe Miriam Tegels of the Netherlands is the fastest knitter in the Guinness Book of World Records. On 26 August 2006 at the Swalman Townhall, NL, she started with a needle that had 120 stitches on it and knitted 118 stitches in one minute.

(There's a YouTube video of Miriam knitting at a group meeting; in the video she seems to prop the right needle under her right arm.)

The previous record holder was Hazel Tindall, of Shetland, UK, whose record was 255 stitches in 3 minutes (85 stitches/minute).

Wannietta, the fastest knitter in North America, posted a personal best of 79 sts/minute some time ago, using her preferred technique of combination knitting.

However, one important factor limits all modern speed records: the contest rules. Most of them require the use of US size 8 straight needles and DK or worsted weight yarn. That is not the needle size nor the yarn size used for _most_ historic knitting, to the best of our current knowledge. Most historic knitting was done with very thin yarn (though there were hats and some sailors' mittens that were deliberately made with very bulky wool and fulled to thicken them).

As far as we know, the needles used for most knitting in the

Miriam Tegels in the video seemed to be propping her right needle under her right arm. Stephanie Pearl-McPhee also uses that technique. Hazel Tindall uses a Shetland knitting belt and traditional steel double-points. Of the three, Hazel's method is closest to the knitting-sheath method for guernseys.

Their speeds are a good reason to doubt the often-quoted "200 stitches per minute" claim, which in its earliest form was only "100 stitches per minute, by experts". At some point the number increased, either by someone wanting to make a more impressive claim or by a simple typographical error. In any case, it was hearsay even the first time it was given, and now only qualifies as rumor or legend.

Miriam Tegels herself has speeded up over the last few years, practicing solely for speed and to overcome her early tendency to freeze when being witnessed. At a competition in October 2006 her speed was only 263 stitches in 3 minutes (87 and 2/3 stitches/minute), a far cry from the 118 sts/min at her fastest so far.

Aaron's reports of his experiments indicate that the shape of the tips and the polish on the needles greatly affect the speed of knitting for him. When he gets going, I have no doubt that he can knit faster than Miriam Tegels because of the tools he uses _and_ the techniques he has developed, _and_ the amount of practice he has done.

But the fact remains that he is using different tools, and the comparison is of apples and oranges.

The requirements of the various contests, and therefore of the Guinness company, prevent Aaron from using his specialized, and more authentic, tools in competition.

Aaron, I am eagerly awaiting your video and book!

Oh, by the way: There's supposed to be another international competition in New York City in September 2007. See

Are we talking about the same socks? On page 211 of her Knitting Book, Thomas describes socks in the V&A attributed to 4th or 5th century excavated in Egypt, and made of RED WOOL. Thomas seems to be on fairly solid ground as she relates the pair to a third unfinished sock in a 12th century Turkish tomb. Since the Turkish sock is unfinished, she could see how the stitches were being formed, as well as comparing finished stitches. I went to the V&A and they would not let me touch and feel. So Thomas is a better investigator than I am.

Maybe the socks in the V&A referenced by Thomas were made by a different methods than the 500 year older socks, made of a different material, and found 500 miles away?

Aaron

Alas, Rutt said that nobody has ever figured out (yet) where Mary Thomas got that particular detail of the unfinished 12th century knitted sock. If anyone finds out for sure, there are lots of us out here who want to know!

However, the 4th or 5th century socks are nalbinding, in wool, and there are a few others as well. Those are the famous 'coptic socks'. Some of them are striped in very bright colors. Irena Turnau wrote in her book that there are some in Russian and Polish museums as well.

The methods are reported to be the same - Egyptian nalbinding - but obviously the socks are different. What I am fascinated by is that the Metzada socks are blue and white cotton, which is typical of the Egyptian knitted socks of the tenth-to-twelfth century, yet they are much earlier and made in the earlier technique, and they seem to have been used by a different culture.

=Tamar

Send a petition to Interweave Press! I can do a book/DVD by myself, but I can do a better book working with them.

Speed is not the primary virtue of a knitting sheath.

The primary virtue is reduced stress on the wrists, and smooth uniform knitting. Last night, one comment about the gansey was that it was too uniform for hand knitting - they said it looked like machine knitting. (Well except for the "change-needles-line" up the middle of the belly! : ) I am still learning.

For quality of fabric, I like #3 needles with worsted yarn, and I can knit a

All of the fast knitters that you discuss below, use knitting systems where they use muscle to push the working needle in both directions. With a gansey needle, the knitter pushes the needle down, into the stitch, and the spring from the flex of the needle finishes the stitch and carries it off the needle when the pressure is released. This is one quarter as many co-ordinated bursts of nerve impulses and muscle contractions per stitch, and steel rebound is faster than muscle. It is not unreasonable that gansey needles should be twice (or more) as fast as other methods of hand knitting. Am I fast? Not really! But some day, I am going to find a young person with nimble fingers and train them into a champion.

Oh, yes, and you can adapt the gansey needle system for sock needles, so you can get that smooth action on socks and sleeves.

Aaron

I am only 52 Aaron!

Tamar for the record , the Metzada socks are WHITE with a stripe or two of blue thus you can`t call them blue and white. Metzada is on the shore [cliffs] over the dead sea , not very far from Egyp. The Romans at the time ruled in Egypt as well, The roma legion held an army post under the Metzada cliff after it`s destruction, and later some lonely monks lives around in caves, Thus you cannot say that it is a totaly different culture, Cotton was always used in Egypt , much before wool was used there,

I must say that the more i read about those `Coptic` socks , the more i was amazed that NOBODY considered that it MIGHT have been a tradition handed down to the Coptic , from Earlier Egyptians..or maybe from the Romans, who brought this knowledge from another place, Or maybe the Romans learned it there and spread the knowledge.......???? The Romans ruled in Egypt and Israel at the same time , [ and in part of this time also in England] . Egypt and Israel had Mercantile comnnections. Numads Easily mooved through Sinai from the Metzada area to Egypt . None of the persons doing these researches either knew or took into consideration the Metzada socks , partly because other findings were higher rated in International interest both of the proffesional archeologists as well as for the laymen. It seems to me that most Knitting resaearchers , did it within the walls of their Country`s museums. I assume that at least part of the artifacts, were aquired not in the most `legal` way, thus information about the precise place of finding it might be a bit incorrect.

I have Japanes and Chineses finger socks that look very much like `Coptic socks`, Traders have walked the Asiatic roads before. The Greek who also ruled theses areas before the Romans, and Persians who also ruled here took whole nations from here ande spread them amongst the other countries ,,,,,, I might than think that maybe some of those people took their Sock Knowledge with them and thus it spread all over Asia ,,, who knows ???? Before the Chinese opened the research of the Urumchi Mumies [again] to Western reserachers , we were not really aware about the wonderful textiles and textilic techniques that were preserved there , and we were not acknowledged that such rtechniques were `so old` . Thus the word to use is always I found i saw i assume , never generalize beyond the artifacts you haven`t seen, or are VERY sure of the source you quote ,,, mirjam

Tamar Don`t blush you deserve it !!!

i remember vaguely that there was anarticle somewhere in an archeological mag of sorts ,,, i will look what and where i can find it ??? I thin the second archeologist was aloso called Tamar but i can`t recollect her family name ,,,must check that too.

Thank you for this info ,, well 118 stitches per minutes is still a looooooong way from 200 , also if she made that with a needle that had only one row on it ,,, one has to check if she could keep that the heavier it became ?????

Thank you for all this information , it is very relevant to this discussion , Sizes of wool and needles make a HUGE difference in all this measurings ,,, your observation that needles and threads used in former centuries were different is a very inportant factor in this discussion. Since the mr speaking about this also used the running marathon as example we might enlighten him that marathon runners now ady also benefit from better shoes [sometimes specialy made for each runner ] better food specialy checked to provide more `running ` energy , we haven`t seen any indication towards such conditions for knitters.

JUST MY POINT !!!!!!!!!!!!!

YOU PUT YOUR FINGER ON THE SPOT THE SPEED OF KNITTING for HIM let`s reapeat it this speed is HIS speed and like you said he uses different tools ,,,,,,,,,

mirjam

Unsubstantiated. "Always" is a long time.

There were also a series of climate changes that brought migrations west out of what is now Iraq and Persia, and east out of North Africa. Also refugees from the Punic Wars, some of whom ended up in Turkey.

It is hard to get grants to research the history of knitting. Less chance of bringing back great sculpture or gold to decorate the lobby of the national museam, that with other branchs of archeology : ) I assume Thompson's sock with 5 hooked needles was some private "archeology" that ended up in some fellow's study and was discarded by his son's wife as soon as she took over the household and was cleaning house.

But your hand, even if not physically conveying the needle back to its starting position, still has to follow it there to retrieve it for the next stitch, doesn't it?

I just tried to see how fast I could wag my pen back and forth using wrist action and I achieved a rate of 216 beats a minute. That's without the overhead of feeding the work along evenly on the left needle, aiming with precision for tiny stitches, and being aware of whether I've picked up each new stitch correctly.

snip

In the late '70s, I ran marathon distance in 2hr 15 min, and the winners were running 2h11min. Now the winners are running 2h 8min. The guy I buy my running shoes from is pretty much "plugged" in and knows what is going on the runners tour. As a knitter, I eat the same things that runners do. Just the the runners can eat more without getting fat.

Not that much changed in running for all the new shoes and everything. Oh, the new anti chafe stuff is neat, but "Chap Stick" workes -- sort of

The 200 spm was specific for the Terrible Knitters of the Dales. A small number of very fast knitters were hired from a large pool of fast knitters, and then trained for 6 weeks to knit super fast. They knit with a rocking motion that was a trade secret. The company tracked knitting performance of each of their knitters so they knew how many stitches each girl was knitting each day. Therefore, the company knowing the knitting rate was plausible.

If you have bothered to research this issue rather than just writing it off as an Urban Legend, then you will know where and when the last of the Terrible Knitters of the Dales died, and you will have read her obituary notice. And, the interview that the local newspaper did a couple of years before she died. I did. Do I trust an old woman's memories? Not really. But, at least I looked. Did you? If you are going to discuss this topic sensibly then do your homework. Read the source material on those knitters. Test knitting sheaths and try to recreate that rocking motion. I have not been successful but I am still trying. Declaring a "Fact" hearsay or rumor without evidence is just as bad as declaring a "Fact" true without evidence.

Aaron

I ran a test last nite and can knit 20 stitches per min, including starting a new row I am real slow.

D> snipped-for-privacy@sbcglobal.net wrote:

Your arm pushes the needle down (along the shaft of the needle), and then arm lifts up with the shaft of the needle pressing up into the grove at the base of the right palm. The needle is in position for the next down stroke much faster than your arm can make the next down stroke.

The pen wag is more like the physics of a knitting pouch and does not simulate the physics of a spring loaded gansey needle, which could be faster.

With polished steel needles and a firm fabric, there is very little overhead in feeding stitches along the left needle as the stitches are pulled forward when stitches are finished and pulled off the left needle. When you have everything dialed in just right, the weight of the fabric tends to move the stitches down the working needle, reducing that overhead.

Your right arm is close into your body and stabilized by the sheath and the needle. This makes working with small needles easier. The right, working needle just sort of gets "banged" into the left needle and then slides along the left needle into the stitch. This is the "clicking needles" of the old novels. With practice, you can do it in the dark.

Aaron

It is not how fast you knit, but

How much you enjoy knitting? and How much you like the finished objects?

At an average knitting rate of 20 spm you could knit the 160,000 stitches in a traditional fisherman's gansey in 134 hours which seems to be about what is reported for the "great" gansey knitters of yester year. They did sustain that speed against fairly complex stitch patterns and firmer fabrics, but still you are getting close.

Aaron

LOL thatnks Aaron. Right now the biggest projects I work on are baby sweaters

D> It is not how fast you knit, but

Mr. you are again barking at the wrong bush, and adressing the wrong issue.

We have already concluded that one of your motives is competition. Good for you to have run Marathon, i walk most of my life, and by walk i mean up to an hour or so almost each day of the year. i live about 250 metters above sea level , thus my walking includes lots of upward the mountain and downwards the mountain. But i don`t count time nore minutes , i walk because it makes me feel good. If i feel like standing sitting and enjoying the view i do so, i always have my bag with some essential things with me , thus i also carry something on my back. NO Marathon or competive urge will give you what walking has given me all my life. I am glad i can walk at all, i am glad to enjoy the weather the sights, being alive, enjoying the ability to moove. to listen to birds to see how things are developing, changing , looking at the sea in the bay. feel how mooving on the slope of the mountain gives me different points of view on buildings , trees and the `whole world`.

I don`t really care, it was your example i used.

i have a surprise for you , i don`t care much about those numbers, i have read probably as much as you have about the subject, and maybe i have read other materials that you haven`t read in other languages that you don`t know, My reason for reading it was different, i read first out of curiousity, than with time as i began teaching and lecturing, and met other people who were interested for various reasons i started writing notes for me and others. Interestingly enough the matter of SPEED never came up , not one of the [probably ] several hundreds of the people with whom i interacted in any way about knitting, ever showed the slightest curiousity about speed. They wanted to know the how and when about knitting history, they were interested in being able to knit nicer and with a bigger variety of stitiches, they wanted to aquire foreign terms , so they could buy a mag and understand how to knit. Some were interested in the histor, as amtter to understand how it influenced Female social status , and you might SHOUT as much as you want speed isn`t part of that status.

You are Assuming as usuall, 1st you don`t know what and if i researched. All my writing /discussing with you says , THAT YOU CAN`T and shouldn`t base your `research` , by Comparing it to your own and any other person living today !!!! And if you can`t copy the EXACT circumstances of those people, than it is not a valid number. If you insist on writing a book and spreading your asumptions than you should have the integrity to write that yoor test was done in more ideal/ different circumstances,

Well you would be surprised i DO trust old women` memories VERY MUCH , but we have learned some wonderful term that is called `according to her ,,," which we print or write when we hear Old Memories of any kind. Than again when i compare memories of some old ladies to people who were in the same place , they are sometimesmore accurate than `memories` of some younger people eager to forward an `agenda` of sorts. As i wrote before i read a lot of material about knitting, but i didn`t stay there i mooved on to other materials that interested me or were important to me. Strangely enough , one might be surprised to read loads of stuff related to knitting also in other places were one went for another subject. My extensive reading about other tectile techniques , has enriched my understanding about knitting as well. My weaving, crochet, embroidery sewing, has taught me many things about the `behaviour` of textiles that have given me a more deeper sense of knitting as well. Since i didn`t stop my knitting at making `only` clothes, but also knitted artistic works with it. i learned to control my doing , to breath with the stitiches , to talk with the threads to sing with the needles. Several years ago my daughter went to study abroad , thus she stored many of her clothes here, one day i opened this big closet and realized that i have knitted so many objects, i felt that i was a little factory. At least 90% of my knitting is my own patterns, my own calculations, many atime i had to knit in circumstances you wouldn`t believe. I am restricted by the materials i can use, But i knit and i please myself , and my suroundings and my curtators with what i produced, And not one person of the hundreds who saw my art work ever asked me in what speed i made it . Because it isn`t relevant not to me not to them. What intersted them was MY ABILITY to produce new shapes , new forms. For a Conventional traditional sweater they will go to a shop.

I did not say your `fact` was hearsay or legend i only said, you should know the limit of what is a fact or not. I said you seem not to be trained in Historical research and validation of read materials , as well as you are trained in what ever your profession is. Reading historical materials NEEDS also a special training, as well as some special traits, it is a gift just like any other gift. mirjam