?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?

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I am seeing items made on knitting frames, i.e., manual knitting machines,
labeled as "hand knit".  Is this legal, or fair and proper?

And, are there stitches, designs, or patterns that can not be "machine knit"
and thus demonstrate to knowledgably people that the object was knit with
needle in hand?

Aaron



Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?



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Hand manipulated kntting IS considered hand-knit, Aaron.....
JM2C,
Hugs,
Noreen



Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


What stitches or patterns can I do that a knitting frame/machine can not?

Aaron
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machines,
with



Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


YO's,
PSSO's
well, actually you CAN do them on a knitting machine or knitting frame,
come to think of it!
But, you CANT do garter stitch, it's stockinette only, LOL!
Noreen


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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


spewed forth :

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Oh, you can produce garter stitch on a knitting machine.  Its a real
PITA though.  Its the hand-manipulation that puts me off of doing
anything but stockinette yardage on the flatbed knitter or stripes on
the CSM.

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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


Thanks!!

POP! POP!  That sound you hear is my eyes opening!

Aaron


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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


Same here somebody sold me one of those ESM , i only make some plain
knitting and than use them as basis to go on ,
mirjam  ps don`t even make yardage once the weight comes to the floor
, rolling it on itself never produces nice results ...
mirjam

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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?



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Unless the knitting machine works under its own power, can effect the
color changes, increases, decreases, cable crosses, bobbles, purls,
etc all by its onesome it is indeed hand knit.

I bill my machine-knit socks as hand-cranked.  The machine speeds
along the knitting process, but it doesn't know how to turn a heel or
toe.

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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?



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nod nod nod, eggsacterly.
One still has to manipulate, especially lacey things too!
JM2C,
Noreen



Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


So, with the proper attachments and skills, any stitch or pattern can be
knit on a machine?

Aaron

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machines,
knit"
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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


At the industrial level, who knows.  Anything is possible, but that
doesn't mean it will be cost-efficient.

The toes and heels on cheap white athletic socks are sewn to shape,
not knitted that way - its because the high-speed knitting machines
that know how to make a short row heel (computer driven) have "issues"
that make it cheaper and easier for the Chinese sock factories to
employ cheap labor to do the toe and heel shapings by hand.

High-dollar flatbed knitting machines for home use are capable of
producing intarsia and fair isle with the proper attachments, but
there's still an awful lot of handwork involved to ensure the color
changes happen correctly and the tension remains consistent throughout
the work.  To the best of my knowledge there's no attachment anywhere
that'll let a machine do cable crosses and bobbles and heavy texture
without human intervention.  Of course, I've been wrong before and I
could be wrong now.

The average consumer neither knows nor cares if there is a difference
between "hand finished"  which describes most commercially-produced
sweaters and "hand knit" which describes the things we knit by hand.


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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


Thanks!  From now on everything gets bobbles and cable crosses whether it
needs it or not; just so people will know it is HAND knit with needles in
hand by the latest of the ladies.

Aaron

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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?



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Aaron

Sorry to burst your bubble, you can easily do lace, bobbles, and cable
crosses on a knitting machine.  They require hand manipulation and
even have special tools to help you cross cables.  There's also a
technique developed by one woman called "Magic Cables" (see
www.magiccables.com) in which you set your machine to knit a tuck
pattern, and you lift stitches up to form mock cables.  With a ribber
attachment, available for higher end machines, you can very easily
create things like moss and seed stitch.  

It's been debated in various places on the net about calling it "hand
knit".  Some are going PC and calling it "frame knit" versus "needle
knit", as the frame holds the stitches, very similar to but not
exactly like knitting needles do.  But, unless you have an electronic
knitting machine with a motor of some sort and a lot of preprogrammed
patterns without shaping, you are creating every stitch using your
hands, and the "transfer tools" that you use to make bobbles and
cables are just a variation of a hand needle type cable needle, and
you still need to create any bobbles and cables and garment shaping by
hand.  If doing any color work, unless you have an expensive
electronic and program the pattern in, you are selecting all the
needles taking fair isle and manipulating multiple colors for intarsia
by hand.  

The tradeoff for needle versus frame knitting is that needle knitting
can be carried practically anywhere, while a frame/machine is not
portable while you've got a project on the needles but does all the
plain stitches faster.  

I have a knitting machine, which I use about as much as I do all my
needles.  However, if I want something done in the round, most KM's
don't handle that, and if I want portable, that means needles.  Are
both enjoyable?  To me, yes.  Do I consider my machine "cheating"?
No.  

If you call maching knitting cheating to a machine knitter, hardcore
machine knitters (not me) will likely say you're cheating to drive a
car anywhere rather than walking with your own God-given 2 feet,
cheating to buy your food in a grocery store rather than growing it
yourself, etc.  It's only a different type of tool than needles, and
it's been around for 400 years, which I think may be longer than
circular needles have been around, so a hardcore knitter of either
variety might call circular needles "cheating" ;-).  

Leah  

Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?



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Beautifully expressed, Leah!
:)
Noreen



Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


Is *manual* knitting machine knitting, (even doing the cables etc. by hand)
MUCH faster than hand knitting?  I.e., Do we hand needle knit because we can
do things that machines can not do? Or, because we enjoy the touch and feel
of hand needle knitting? Or, because we do not have a knitting machine? Or,
because we need something to do with our hands while waiting, and a knitting
frame will not fit in our pocket?

Or, because like me, we do not know about knitting machines?

Or, is it net, net; that manual machine knitting of complex knitting is not
enormously faster because of the all hand work?  And thus, for a reasonably
good knitter producing nice consistent stitches, there is simply not that
much advantage to investing in, and supporting a knitting machine?

Aaron

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it
in



Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?



Hi again Aaron,

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If you are doing the same type of cable with the same crosses on the
front of a sweater, say 6-8 cables on a background of stocking stitch
or reverse stocking, it definitely goes substantially faster, even
with all the hand transfers, because the rows between the crosses are
usually plain stitches and only require you to move the carriage
across the row, move weights up if needed to keep tension/gauge even,
and to pull the yarn up for the beginning of the next row to prevent
loops and presto you're ready to do the next row.  Lace, if it's not
too complicated, also is very fast, since doing most lace patterns on
a manual machine you are simply moving stitches from one needle to
another, no YO or PSSO to worry about to create the holes.  Fair isle
if not too complicated goes much faster too.  Intarsia, I think that's
hard by hand and by machine, whether you are using bobbins or just
long lengths of colors.  I think having a machine doing intarsia the
advantage is that even though the back of the work is toward you, it's
easier to see the pattern and not lose your place, since you have both
hands free and can move back from the work to look and see if you
crossed off the right row on your chart.  However, if you invest in a
row counter, every time the carriage passes, it counts rows for you,
so that's also a helper.  

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You can get a knitting machine and use it to do all your stocking
stitch pieces and save your time and effort for doing the more complex
work by hand.  If you want a single cable panel for an afghan or some
other type of insert, you could make it in a single afternoon on a
knitting machine, and do a really nicefair isle sweater in a week, so
it does save weeks of time, but unless I was doing mock cables, I
definitely would not use my machine to do an all over aran sweater.  

Leah  

Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


Thanks!! That is the info that I wanted.

This group once again shines the light of experience on the darkness of
ignorance.

Aaron
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hand)
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can
feel
Or,
knitting
not
reasonably



Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?



NP Aaron,

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To be a little more specific, if you're interested in a Bond knitting
machine, to do fair isle, you don't need any special tools.  They
explain how to push the contrast color needles all the way forward
into what's called holding position, knit the rest of the row like
normal, which the carriage does not knit the needles in hold, and then
you take contrast yarn across and manually knit the pattern by hand.
If you're doing a complicated all over fair isle pattern, they may
recommend (and I agree with) getting a fair isle speed selector, which
is an clear heavy duty plastic bar with smaller pieces embedded in it,
which is different from regular needle selectors, which are fixed and
unchanging (2 x 2, 3 x 3, etc).  On the speed selector, you match the
smaller pieces to your pattern, as you're given special graph paper to
lay out the pattern on.  Then, you take your speed selector and put it
on your knitting machine against the needles, and since it's spaced
like your knitting machine (they come in different sizes), each tab
can match up to a needle, but the tabs that are pushed out of the way
where you aren't doing patterning don't push needles forward that will
take it.  I hope that makes sense.  It's not needed, but for more
complex patterns, it does save time on fair isle.  

For aran, you get some tools that come with your machine.  It's been
so long, I forget which, but I think you only get the 3 x 3 transfer
tools, which means you can make a 6, 9, or 12, etc stitch cable.  They
also make 2 x 2, and I think those are special order.  There's also 1
x 1, which is used not only for very tiny crosses, but also twisted
stitches.  I got the special tools kit a long time back, and now I
have 1 x 1, 2 x 2, and 3 x 3.  In addition, it came with a "latchet"
tool that I never use for doing stitch reforming to turn a knit stitch
on the right side to a purl.  Most of us finds it splits the yarn or
snags it and use crochet hooks instead.  In addition with special
tools, I got a double ended "latchet" (aka tappet tool according to
other knitting machine maker's terms), which they say makes things
like seed stitch, but I also don't use it, because in the middle of a
big piece, it's hard to reach around both sides of the work to reform
stitches.  I got a "bodkin", which is a double eyed needle, eyes on
both ends, which is actually used on a double bed knitting machine to
transfer stitches from one bed to the other, but they are vague about
what you can use that for since the Bond is a single bed (they haven't
made a ribber for it for ages).  The most useful of the special tools
I got, I think, was the stitch picker.  If you drop a stitch, you know
how they tend to shrink up and are very hard to rescue without
running?  Well, this tiny hook looks like a dental cleaning tool, and
works like a charm to grab those stitches before they run if they
drop.  

For intarsia, you can get a special "keyplate", which is the plastic
thing that forms the stitches as the carriage goes across the row.
The other KP's only give you varying gauges for various yarns.
They've improved the gauges, but I think made the carriage more
difficult to deal with.  They claim it's improved for faster color
changes because the front is open, but you have to be more attentive
to make sure the yarn doesn't pop out of the front and not knit.  Some
people have found modifying a paper clip and hot gluing it to the
carriage to feed the yarn through keeps it from popping out.  I
haven't tried it on my USM carriage, because while I got the upgrade
kit, I still use my ISM carriage.  They also made the new carriage
smaller, so while the Ultimate Sweater Machine (USM for short) KP's
will fit into an old Incredible Sweater Machine (ISM) carriage, your
ISM KP's will not fit into the USM.  So if you go for auctions online
to save $$$ in getting things for a Bond, if they are selling ISM KP,
remember they won't fit into a USM carriage.  You can do intarsia by
hand, but the KP certainly does speed it up.  What it does is knits
the row after you lay the yarns, and it pushes all the needles all the
way forward, open and ready for the next lay of yarn.  Doing it by
hand, you have to push all the needles foward yourself.  A single
intarsia KP gives all regular KP gauges and all half sizes, 1, 1.5, 2,
2.5, 3, 3.5, 4.  Some people bought them before the 2.5 and 3.5 sides
were added to the basic KP set to give the in between gauges, as it
can be used for plain knitting as well.  

Just a bit about KM gauge:  The "bulky" Bond takes baby yarn, sport,
worsted, bulky, and super bulky.  Baby yarn doesn't work quite as well
on it as a "midgauge" machine like Studio's LK-150, which is a lot
more expensive than a Bond, but it's passable for most purposes using
the #1 KP.  Sport yarns work great with the 2 and 2.5 KP.  Worsted
weight works great with the 2.5, 3, and 3.5 KP depending on how tight
you want the fabric.  The #4 is for bulky and super bulky, and while I
tried it out and like the bulky results, I don't use super bulky yarns
and can't comment on how working with SB yarn works on the machine.  

Machine gauge itself is different than stitch gauge and refers to how
many mm there are between needles.  A standard gauge, the fancier
electronics like Brother and Studio's non-hobby machines, have 4.5 mm
between each needle.  Midgauges are funny.  They have anywhere from 5
mm (Passap which was also called their standard gauge) to 6.5 mm
(Studio) to 7 mm (Bond's long discontinued Elite) between the needles.
I think the most common is 6.5 mm.  The bulky ones (Bond, Brother
which is discontinued a few years now and hard to find, and Studio)
run 8 mm (Bond) to 9 mm (Brother, Studio).  Plastic "hobby" machines
don't have ribbers available, but I think someone wrote up online how
to make a ribber out of a second Bond machine.  Hobby machines vary
greatly in cost.  The Bond costs about $120-$180 depending on where
you shop and whether you get the deluxe (30 extra needles, row
counter, and sometimes the intarsia KP come included with the deluxe,
and all are worth it IMO), while Studio's LK-150 costs $400 to start.
Used Bonds can go from $50-$150 for a used ISM (because the carriage
is more popular) on Ebay.  You can also find an LK-100 (only 100
needles) or LK-150 (150 needles) on Ebay for varying prices (depending
on if parts are missing).  You can also look into Brother's KX-350,
which I understand was their midgauge hobby machine, and I have no
idea how much that would put you out  I think that's a midgauge
machine like the LK-150.  

Studio went out of production in the US for a few years, but when
Brother decided to stop making them, they came back.  Passap went out
of the KM business everywhere and no longer make parts to fix their
machines.  There are also various other older names you'll find out
there, but most of those have lots of parts missing.  

HTH  

Leah  

Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


Thanks for all the info about KM. I have filed it, and am keeping it for
reference.

Just now, I am thinking about the more general advantages of  hand needle
knitting over knitting machines.

As I research this, I conclude that one of the sweaters that I had used as a
standard of excellence for
"hand knitting" was actually done on some kind of a knitting machine.  I
realize I have been racing a machine.

For now, the versatility and portability of  needle knitting out weigh the
speed and uniformity of KM production.

Beside, my wife barely tolerates the basket of yarn and needles by my chair
in the living room.  I do not think she would like a KM in the living room.

Aaron
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Re: ?? Is something knit on a manual knitting machine "hand knit"?


On Mon, 13 Mar 2006 07:34:03 -0700, Leah

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Right - doing anything but plain old stockinette on a home flatbed
machine requires hand manipulation, for the most part.  I think that's
what we've been saying all along...

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