PING Fred Holder thanks for comments

I think so too, Tom. Fred is tremendous resource for turning knowledge and has been for years. I personally am glad to see him back on the group more these days.

Robert

Thank you Tom and Robert for the support. I and others have somewhat withdrawn from the group because of those who seem to feel that they must criticize every post that does not agree with their thinking. I originally started withdrawing because of a fellow, whose name I've forgotten, started attacking me on almost every post that I made and claimed that I was only posting to promote my business. He even began writing very critical e-mails to me. I believe he was possibly responsible for others withdrawing from the group.

I don't do any in depth scientific analysis of things. I simply try them, if they work, I like to share the information with others. I have never completely withdrawn from the group, simply stopped posting as much as I did before there were a number of attacks of my posts. I post occasionally because I feel that something if being overlooked in the discussions. That was the case with freeze drying, alcohol drying, and vacuum drying.

Now, to my qualifications, I'm not a scientist, I am a writer and reporter. I've been a technical writer for over 40 years. I've written extensively on woodturning and blacksmithing and on electronics. I have written four books on woodturning subjects, one currently in the publishing stage. I have published More Woodturning for almost 10 years. I have never missed an issue and often had to write every word in the publication myself. I have published Blacksmith's Gazette continuously since 1994 and am responsible for starting the alt.crafts.blacksmithing newsgroup several years ago.

I've been actively turning wood since 1988 and have always been experimental with my work. I turn a few bowls, but mostly turn other things, which not many others are doing, like the Chinese Ball and hand thread chasing. I attend the Utah Woodturning Symposium each year (have been doing so since 1997) and will be demonstrating this year for the first time. I've attended several of the AAW symposiums and have been a member of AAW for many years. I've demonstrated woodturning in Norway, England, Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Canada, New Zealand, and extensively in the United States.

I've also been a woodcarver for a goodly number of years, but turning is still my love. However, I think my real love is writing about woodturning.

Well, I've gone on way too long, so thanks for the support.

Fred Holder

And you do a good job of that.

Then why should it trouble you that others do? You could, and possibly even should learn something. Which, is one reason why the information is presented in analysis and rebuttal. The other being to warn others against believing a magic feather will save them when jumping from the tower when they could save themselves by using their ears and minds.

George, You are an irritating pompous ass. Your comments for the most part are derogatory, unwanted and more fit for the WRECK. I am sure that if you tried very hard you could share your wisdom(?) in a manor that would be interesting to read.

Clue: sometimes it's the singer, not the song.

With Fred, absolutely. He's made the statement directly. It's the messenger, not the message. Halo effect is the limit of his "research." Someone has accidental success with something - but a reputation - then as the original "spielendoktor" has it, it becomes truth by repetition. The hobby is full of turning legends originated by turning legends that are plain false. One immediately to mind is that wax will "harden" soft wood for sanding. I suppose, had the first little pig used some wax to bond that straw house, the wolf would be a vegetarian today.

Personally, I don't think Michael Jordan, fine player he was, knows much about jockey shorts that we haven't discovered on our own.

That's a terrible analogy and you should be ashamed for using it. The implication is that Fred's method will NEVER works, yet it does. You imply that Fred is 100% wrong or else flat-out lying with that analogy.

It's amazing to me that a guy that isn't 'scientific' can write about complex turnings like Chinese balls and well fitted threads with intricately interrelated parts and can describe holding methods with such clarity. I bet the other person who designed them, turned them and photographed them before giving them to the writer used science, even if he felt no need to claim doing so.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if they turn out to be one and the same person. If so, this fellow has a lot of intuitive and scientific knowledge and is secure enough to use both without posturing.

I say this because this guy has contributed an awful lot to this ng without resort to low comedy, pompous sarcasm or insulting abuse as others, including me, have to varying degrees. As for science, this fellow cuts & tries logically to see what works before making assumptions; sort of like the scientific method isn't it. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

AMEN!

George, I've valued a number of your posts. And will look forward to others, I'm sure. Still I have to say that if you could just take a chill pill to calm your righteousness it would make listening to you so much easier. "Singer/song" "Irritating/pompous ass" are descriptions that too often are accurate. This isn't a personal attack but a simple "wake up" comment.

As the years have passed and my expertise grown in so many areas I have observed that, at times, all the scientific documentation and logic that I tend to use don't explain certain phenomena. Some factor is not included. So an open-minded acceptance of practical reality is reasonable to consider until further evidence is acquired.

So, add data and some great reference links but just try to be less value-judging while we other folks explore. Discoveries are often the combination of data, green-light thinking, and comfortable, respectful, no-fault discussions. If everything was already decided and determined we'd be wasting our money on new research.

TomNie

I echo Tom, Robert and others', enjoyment and appreciation of your participation here, Fred. (I also noticed a post by Tony Manella the other day... stick around Tony!) Please don't let the current crop of individuals distance you again. We lost some fine talent and well-spoken, friendly folks a couple years ago - at the time you pulled back too. I still miss Lyn's posts and his in-depth analysis of all the turning stuff he had - and continue to reread his past posts and More Woodturning articles when I have a purchase decision.

(For those unfamiliar with what I'm referring to, look up posts by Lyn Mangiameli on, say, hollowing tools. He would actually try out a half dozen "systems" and report his likes and dislikes with each. He approached it as a hands-on evaluation with just a touch of his science/medical background thrown in.

BINGO! Who cares whether something is grounded with solid scientific reasoning - if it works for you (the generalized "you") then WOOHOO! - you found something to aid your turning. If waxing tearout works to get a better cut, then who cares whether it stiffens or lubricates or makes the fibers smell good? It works for those who swear by it.

A simple dissenting: "I don't believe it's a stiffening action of the wax that results in a better cut but I'm glad it works for you" reply is all that is necessary. Let's keep things civil and, unless it's a life and death situation, sometimes we can just keep our keyboards quiet when we disagree. Just smile and let the poor sap believe what he believes and confine your commentary to more important issues, such as how to solve our own problems.

Not Quite what I had in mind. Up front, I'll say that I enjoy your posts and I usually learn something from each of them. However, you are sometimes so abrupt and concise, it may seem to be rudeness. Now, before we get into a pissing contest, I have had the same said about me - in verbal communication. I'm also known to be Brutaly Honest. "Honey, how do I look?" "Like Tootsie on a bad hair day." WHAP!

The singer, not the song. "Tootsie on a bad hair day." said with a jokey smile might just make it.

Well said Owen!

I've learned a lot from hanging out here and I read this newsgroup posts when ever I can.

I too miss some of the old bunch that used to frequent this place, including Fred, Tony, Lynn, Ruth, and several others.

Bertie