Pricing help needed ...

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "Tante Lina" :

]add up the cost of my ]materials and the hourly rate for assembly (what you would pay someone else ]to do it, which is probably your $10 an hour figure), and double it. The ]rationale for this is the same as in retail, if you can't make 100% profit ]on an item, you probably shouldn't bother selling it. If you can sell items ]with the above formula, you could theoretically hire someone to assemble for ]you. Then if there was design time, I try to add a 15% profit over that. ]Sometimes this needs to be adjusted downward for the situation (when you ]compare your price / merchandise to the other stuff on the site, for ]instance. Or if the materials cost for an item is especially high, I'll sell ]them at cost to make the item more affordable.) ] ]Thought you might be interested in a tip from the Reactive Metals catalog. ]They suggest shoe polish as an anti-tarnish coating for copper and brass! ]I've not tried it yet.

i'm sending this to myself, so i don't forget.

thank you!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

There are many things to consider when pricing an item for sale:

1) You must keep accurate records of how much you paid for your materials ( including tax and shipping) and how much of each material was used to create the piece. Whatever that amount is double it, because that extra money helps pay for your time in shopping for the materials, and for tools and such. 2) You must keep track of how long the item took to make. If it was your first attempt and it took a long time because you are a beginner, you may want to average the time out a bit after you have made a number of the same item. Obviously a slow beginner is not going to have as much profit as a faster experienced person. 3) You have to decide how much per hour you need to make. If you are a beginner that should at least be minimum wage, as you get better then the sky is the limit. If you are really good and really creative people will pay more per hour for your labors. I think $8-$10 an hour is a fair starting wage for a new inexperienced jeweler, but as you get to be more productive or your quality improves you can charge way more.

One problem you may encounter is with the Indian style bead work. I was never able to make a profit on it because it takes so long to make, and there is too much competition willing to sell it dirt cheap. I don't know about you , but if something takes me half a day to make I'm not going to sell it for $10! I can't pay my bills on that. Some of your seed bead items are really unique, so they should command a higher price based on uniqueness.

4) You need to add an extra $1 or more to each piece to cover your overhead, such as phone bill, propane use, electricity, etc. For a simple piece add a little, for a complex piece that took hours or days add more. 5) You need to add in a few $$ towards advertising and marketing expenses. Perhaps whatever it costs you to maintain your own website, list items on eBay, or rent a table at a craft fair. 6) If you sell your items directly, you should add a bit more to cover your time and energy as a salesperson, because that is a separate job which takes even more of your time. If someone else sells for you they will discuss their commission with you. The item will be marked up further to reflect how much they want to make off of it, and how much they think they can get for it. With gold and watches the retail markup is usually double, and the silver markup is often quintuple . Costume jewelry is trickier, but it is usually at least double. 7) If you sell mail order or via eBay make sure you add in the cost of packing materials and your time and energy to write the listing, photograph the items, pack the items, and drop them off at the post office. If you use a digital camera you will save money on photo processing fees. 8) Keep accurate records of how much you sell and to whom. If you want to do this legally and professionally you will need to report your profits to the IRS. A bonus though is that you can also deduct your expenses, and get a resale certificate so that you can buy wholesale and not pay taxes.

I haven't sold jewelry in a long time, but these are some of the things I took into consideration with each item when pricing it.

Hope it helps,

Rebecca

Thanks. That was very comprehensive.

And I hear you when it comes to Native American style seed bead work. Even the most gorgeous things are priced to strike terror in the heart of anyone who loves to make it, but needs it to bring a price that reflects what goes into it (like me).

I shuddered when I saw stuff that I knew from experience takes *hours* to do selling for under ten-bucks at a local *grocery* store. It was a classy grocery, with lovely things in their personal-care and adornment area, but my lord! There is no way to compete with that. And no way to make your livelihood that way.

Deirdre

SOOZ - this should go in the bead notes, too!

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "NYC-FMS" :

]There are many things to consider when pricing an item for sale: ] ]1) You must keep accurate records of how much you paid for your materials ]( including tax and shipping) and how much of each material was used to ]create the piece. Whatever that amount is double it, because that extra ]money helps pay for your time in shopping for the materials, and for tools ]and such. ] ]2) You must keep track of how long the item took to make. If it was your ]first attempt and it took a long time because you are a beginner, you may ]want to average the time out a bit after you have made a number of the same ]item. Obviously a slow beginner is not going to have as much profit as a ]faster experienced person. ] ]3) You have to decide how much per hour you need to make. If you are a ]beginner that should at least be minimum wage, as you get better then the ]sky is the limit. If you are really good and really creative people will ]pay more per hour for your labors. I think $8-$10 an hour is a fair starting ]wage for a new inexperienced jeweler, but as you get to be more productive ]or your quality improves you can charge way more. ] ]One problem you may encounter is with the Indian style bead work. I was ]never able to make a profit on it because it takes so long to make, and ]there is too much competition willing to sell it dirt cheap. I don't know ]about you , but if something takes me half a day to make I'm not going to ]sell it for $10! I can't pay my bills on that. Some of your seed bead items ]are ]really unique, so they should command a higher price based on uniqueness. ] ] ]4) You need to add an extra $1 or more to each piece to cover your overhead, ]such as phone bill, propane use, electricity, etc. For a simple piece add a ]little, for a complex piece that took hours or days add more. ] ]5) You need to add in a few $$ towards advertising and marketing expenses. ]Perhaps whatever it costs you to maintain your own website, list items on ]eBay, or rent a table at a craft fair. ] ]6) If you sell your items directly, you should add a bit more to cover your ]time and energy as a salesperson, because that is a separate job which ]takes even more of your time. If someone else sells for you they will ]discuss their commission with you. The item will be marked up further to ]reflect how much they want to make off of it, and how much they think they ]can get for it. With gold and watches the retail markup is usually double, ]and the silver markup is often quintuple . Costume jewelry is trickier, but ]it is usually at least double. ] ]7) If you sell mail order or via eBay make sure you add in the cost of ]packing materials and your time and energy to write the listing, photograph ]the items, pack the items, and drop them off at the post office. If you use ]a digital camera you will save money on photo processing fees. ] ]8) Keep accurate records of how much you sell and to whom. If you want to do ]this legally and professionally you will need to report your profits to the ]IRS. A bonus though is that you can also deduct your expenses, and get a ]resale certificate so that you can buy wholesale and not pay taxes. ] ]I haven't sold jewelry in a long time, but these are some of the things I ]took into ]consideration with each item when pricing it. ] ]Hope it helps, ] ]Rebecca ] ] ]

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

I am an Native American artist and I can tell you that most of NA's sell their stuff dirt cheap and then someone else makes a killing. That's why I like to come up with my own designs, but keep them somewhat Native. At least in looming. I didn't grow up on a reservation, but I have lots of NA friends who help me with inspiration. I love the old tales and will probably make jewelry to tell those tales.

It was a PITA, but a satisfying and educational one in the long run. And what I learned in the process means doing another in the same vein would be less difficult and time-consuming.

But with me in the retailer's role via Eclectic Beadery, I am far more inclined to price it at somewhere in the neighborhood of double your $40 suggestion. That might be just barely do-able as a wholesale price for a buyer who wanted many other things as well.

Is that totally unreasonable? Would it sit there forever on Eclectic Beadery, being noticed but not bought, at such a price? I've seen single-strand strung necklaces for more, with comparable semi-precious stones as focals -- and this took considerably more time to create than a strung necklace would.

Even the strung jasper necklaces in my offering I am inclined to put at $60 or more, and if the seed bead stuff can't return at least minimum wage for the time they take, then making them at all (for sale, at least) just makes no sense.

Am I being unrealistic in my needs and expectations here?

Deirdre

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Deirdre S. :

]Am I being unrealistic in my needs and expectations here?

no.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Deirdre S. :

]I am happy if I can retain some of the 'flavor', while doing ]designs that have my own more contemporary stamp on them.

i think that's what i've done with my dreamcatchers. or at least i like to think so.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Whew!

Now I just have to hope that the buying public is in tune with them, too.

A more difficult and uncertain question to answer, but one I can only test in the laboratory of everyday life...

I don't want to price myself right out of business by asking less than it costs me to make things. And I can't afford to keep making things that don't at least pay for themselves, plus a bit to grow on...

Deirdre

It really isn't the return on the investment as much as it is passing it onto the children so we don't forget our ways. I always buy directly from Native Artists or from NA endorsed stores. Most of the stores are owned by Natives. The NA stores help the artist get more value for their work and promote them well.

I wish I had grown up on the reservation so I could know my native language. I'm learning Choctaw now, but it's a little hard for someone who had trouble learning even Spanish.

This makes sense. And what a great time for stories and connection between generations that learning/teaching process would be, too.

As for learning Choctaw, anything you can manage will be more than you knew before. Whatever you learn, a lot or a little, can't help but give you more understanding of a different way of looking at the world, and that could be of great value even if you never get to be fluent.

Deirdre

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Deirdre S. :

]Now I just have to hope that the buying public is in tune with them, ]too.

well, you didn't say THAT!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Deirdre S. :

]I don't want to price myself right out of business by asking less than ]it costs me to make things. And I can't afford to keep making things ]that don't at least pay for themselves, plus a bit to grow on...

trust me. i KNOW!

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

Huh? What are the bead notes? Why does my message belong there? Did I say something new and interesting?? Remember I'm a newbie to this group... I don't know all your ways yet.

Rebecca

Your welcome. I could probably add more to it, but that was all off the top of my head. I got a book on pricing around here somewhere, it has tips on what retailers should do. If anyone is interested I can try to dig it up and give you the title/author etc... The wholesale/direct pricing was stuff I learned in school, and through my own experiences.

That is exactly how I feel. I'll only do seed bead native American type stuff for myself. It just doesn't pay well enough to design it for the public.

No, there isn't. That's why I stopped doing the native American type bead work.. I didn't want to be a starving artist. If you want to make money at this you have to sell things at a reasonable price for a reasonable profit. If you charge too much it will be hard finding someone who will buy it, if you charge too little, you can't feed yourself! My advice is to only do that type of beadwork for yourself or as gifts to loved ones, unless you enjoy making less than minimum wage? My guess is that the answer is no.

Rebecca

That is terrible. The work is so time consuming, they should be able to make more on it and not be taken advantage of by greedy reatilers.

Rebecca

LOL! You got my sympathies. I took 5 years of Spanish and still cant hold a conversation. I cant think in Spanish and I cant put the words in the right order or remember all the masculine/feminine versions of each word, etc... My accent and pronunciation are also pathetic. But , my vocabulary is good enough that I can read most signs, and some menus, which helps since we have a huge Hispanic population in NYC. I also tried learning some more Yiddish, but I have problems with that too.

Rebecca

vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from "NYC-FMS" :

ooops - sorry. Sooz keeps the "Bead Notes" and posts them.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

I remembered that I had just read this conversation recently in the rcj group, and thought it had merit. This answer came from "MarbleMyke"

Your pricing method only considers the cost of your materials and not the most important, your time. You might cut costs by buying in bulk, but your biggest return (in the long run) is being able to produce more in less time. The method I use works with materials whose cost is negligable as well as costly. First, I would figure out precisely how long it takes to make the piece and decide how much you want to earn per hour. Since I have been making wire jewelry for more than ten years, I pay myself 18 dollars an hour. To this I add double the cost of the materials. If prone to giving discounts or high overhead, maybe X

2.5. So if I use $2 worth of materials and spend 20 minutes making a bracelet the retail price I set is $10. If someone wants ten or more of this item, my wholesale pice is half that because after making several of the same item, the time it takes to make it is reduced drastically. In other words, if it takes 20 minutes to make the first one, by the time I've made 5, it's only taking 10 minutes, cause I don't have to think about each step anymore. So, using your materials and my formula, I would have to spend 4 or 5 hours making the ring in order to set the price at $140. Hope this is helpful,

-MarbleMyke