On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 20:11:39 -0400, vj wrote (in message ):
vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V
> :
>
>> We're very, very proud of the way she's come along.
>
> WOW!
> i should guess!
> there ought to be a special medal!
>
I know. Isn't she great?
We had a heavy, deep and real talk on Friday, and it damn near broke my heart.
My P/T D came from a background of serious abuse, the kind where your father breaks your bones because you looked at him sideways. When we first got her, you couldn't raise a hand anywhere near her without her flinching and acting all tough. Unfortunately, her father's parental rights were not terminated, and she has to see him once a month by court order. The only saving grace of this is that he married a very nice and fortunately childless, woman; and no episodes have happened in a couple of years.
Last week, during a supervised visit, P/T D asked her father why he hit her. I don't know what answer she was looking for, but she didn't get it. He denied everything, and said her mother had been imagining things. (Bullsh*t. I've seen the bruises that are like tattoos, ones that will be on that kid for life) She was practically in tears when she asked me why he wouldn't fess up to it.
I told her that part of being a grownup is acknowledging when you screw up, and trying to never repeat your mistakes. I also told her that this is a worthy, but impossible goal, and that I f*ck up every day, usually before breakfast. If her father isn't grown up enough to admit that he's as flawed as the rest of us, she should pity him, because at his age; it's unlikely that he'll ever grow up. As for P/T D, she should be proud that she's grown up enough to know that hurting other people is wrong, and that she'll never make that same mistake. (It's been a long time since she's raised a hand when she was angry)
We then talked about how afraid she was of DH and me at first, and that she purposely tried to tick us off in the beginning, to see if we really meant it when we said we never hit anyone. I can't even convey her shock when I told her that we knew that, that we've always known, and that there's nothing that she could do that is bad enough that we would stop loving her, and that you don't hit the people you love.
She wanted to know why DH won't ever take her to her visitation, and I told her that he's too angry with P/T D's father, and doesn't want to cause a scene that would end up with P/T D getting the brunt of it. P/T D admitted that she tells everyone that DH is her father, and that her real father is just some guy her mom used to be married to, a long time ago. (I said that would be perfectly fine with DH)
I can't find the words to say how proud I am of that kid.
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 21:23:40 -0400, Cheri2Star wrote (in message ):
But there's so nothing to it! Just treat the kid the way you want(ed) to be treated. Shut up and listen. Make your expectations crystal clear. Encourage their passions. Give 'em good grub and tell them you love them at every single opportunity.
Let them them know that whatever the world dishes out, you're there, and you love them beyond imagining.
I was going to say, you dont know how many parents havent got a clue how easy it is, but I suspect you do.... People give me the dullest looks when I talk about treating a child with respect. They dont get it. So, youre right when you say its easy to parent your way, but boy is it hard to convince some people that children are real people and deserve not to be shamed, guilt tripped or tricked into acceptable behaviours, or teased or beaten, or.. well.. you get my drift.. I think you would be a great parenting teacher too. Diana
vj found this in rec.crafts.beads, from Kathy N-V :
]But there's so nothing to it! Just treat the kid the way you want(ed) to be ]treated. Shut up and listen. Make your expectations crystal clear. ]Encourage their passions. Give 'em good grub and tell them you love them at ]every single opportunity. ] ]Let them them know that whatever the world dishes out, you're there, and you ]love them beyond imagining. ] ]That's it.
Kathy. i've been marking this "unread" ever since you posted it so i could come back to it. everything you said is beautifully true. but you didn't mention how hard it can be at times - especially the discipline and follow-through that MUST accompany it. and i think that's where many parents fall down. it's WORK enforcing discipline. it's WORK being a good parent. and too many people aren't ready to admit that being a good parent means putting what THEY want on the back burner for the next 18 years. they don't want to hear it.
you are indeed a marvel to see things so clearly. i wish more people had "access" to you.
----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)
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's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis
On Wed, 1 Oct 2003 18:08:20 -0400, vj wrote (in message ):
Well, yeah. When they're little, it's a matter of distracting them from the bad behavior and giving them the correct options eighty zillion times until it gets through their rock hard little skulls. "You don't want to pick up the dog by the tail, it's not nice. You wouldn't like it if the dog bit you, and that's what will happen. Be nice to the dog" (ad nauseum)
Then there's the warning tone: "Don't you _ever_ hit me. I don't hit you, and I won't let you hit me. Good people don't hit other people." (This was coupled with lightning fast reflexes to catch the hand about to slap me) "Let's hit pillows instead until we're not angry anymore."
and i think that's where
It means being a jerk once in a while, too. I hate, hate, hate having to be a hard ass and take away some privileges because a rule was broken. (and we don't have a heck of a lot of rules, it takes intentional bad behavior to get in trouble here) It sucks having to cancel some long awaited plans because the kids were really acting up, and we're all grounded. Grounding a kid means you're grounded, too; at least in my house.
Fortunately, it gets easier. I found the baby/toddler years to be hellish, because they simply don't get it. They don't mean to do the same stupid thing eight million times, but they don't have the mental capacity to remember. Once DD got to be school aged, and we could discuss actions and consequences, and life got much easier.
I've found that being absolutely consistent and predictable makes discipline (which really means teaching, not punishment) a whole lot easier. The kids know that every time I see dishes in the living room, I will turn off the television and make them bring the dishes in the kitchen and wash them. They know that clothes left on the floor stay there, and you're not going to have clean clothes to wear. Arguing outside the house automatically means that whatever activity we're doing is over, and we're going home to do chores. They know that A+B always equals C, and that no amount of pleading or arguing is going to change things. That doesn't mean I don't listen, it means that if something is wrong today, it's also wrong tomorrow, and it will be wrong as long as I'm in charge.
Yep. When DD was a baby, I reflected on how every single aspect of my life had changed. I couldn't think of one thing that had remained the same as before I had her. From what I ate, to what I wore, to even taking a shower - everything had to take a back burner to the kid. I've told many women that unless they're prepared to give up every single thing that they've ever had, don't bother having children. The rewards are incredible, but the cost is high.
I have a lot of time to think these things through. When I worked, I spent a lot of travel time trying to clarify my parenting philosophy; mostly because I was trying so damn hard to be a good parent and still have a career. A huge amount of credit has to go to DH and his parents. I don't agree with everything they every did (like anyone agrees with everything someone else does), but they were incredible parents. They had less than no money, but they loved each other, spent time with each other, and even though the parents were definitely the bosses in the house, the boys were given rights and treated as human beings worthy of respect.
Look at my FIL, for example. He has an eighth grade education, because his family needed him to leave school to work. He spent his whole working career as a welder, and probably never made more than $25K a year. He rarely speaks, and an emotional conversation out of him just isn't going to happen. Doesn't look like the formula for a great dad, huh?
He is and was incredible. He spent endless hours teaching his sons how to throw a ball, or fly a kite, or holding the back of a bicycle until they could ride on their own. He made them their breakfast every morning of their school lives and packed their favorite lunches. Every day. If something was happening at school, he was there. He is a terrific and loving man.
When DD was born, he decided to switch to a four day work week - so he could take Fridays off to be with her. Until she went to school full time, he spent every Friday afternoon with her. They had a routine: they'd go to a convenience store so she could get a juice and one piece of candy. Then off to the beach to throw rocks in the water and chase seagulls. After that, he'd push her on the swings at the playground. Then they'd come home and my MIL would make chicken and french fries and they'd all have a "picnic" in the backyard (or on the three season porch in winter). He didn't shower her with money or expensive gifts: each Friday cost perhaps a dollar. It was time, and showing her that she was valuable and loved.
I compare that to my own dad, and I feel sad. I remember spending one afternoon with my father in my whole life, when he took me on a sales call. I had to sit in the car while he was with his customers. He spent every weekend fishing, hunting, playing golf or just carousing with his friends. He'd complain that he worked hard, and didn't want to hear a bunch of "damn kid noise" when he got home. As long as we were in the house by dark, no one really gave a damn what we were up to (as long as we didn't cause neighbors or the police to complain). Not exactly the way to build a relationship with a parent. (Do you he called me to find out my sister's middle name? He has no idea of his own daughter's name. How tragic.)
My mom tried, she really did. She spent endless hours with us, teaching us to cook, playing with homemade play-doh, sewing every stitch of clothing we wore. But she had no support from her [abusive] husband, didn't speak the language, and was allowed no money and no friends. No wonder she lost it at times. Then Dad split the second we all hit adolescence, and left us in extreme poverty. She spent so much time trying to put food on the table and keep the lights on that teenage angst and acting up just couldn't be a priority. Add the fact that she had a background of scary, probably criminal abuse as a child, and we're darned lucky she did as well as she did. Mom did give us very strong values, and taught us to be survivors.
I'm very lucky. My illness always gave me the fear that I wouldn't live to see DD grow up, and that really colored the way I parented her. Figuring I had a limited time made me really cut to the chase and worry about what was really important. I may never be rich in material goods, but I feel like the wealthiest woman in the world.
I agree with this 100%. This is the primary reason that I *don't* have children. I fought too long and too hard to establish my own life apart from my parents to even contemplate giving it up to have kids of my own.
Reminds me of my house growing up. The ONE time I whined trying to get my way (a friend could always pull it off with her Mom) just added consequences to the already vetoed activity. But hey I learned quickly! Mom didn't even want others to whine to her on our behalf :)
But I still wonder how it worked. I was an amazingly good kid- hey I had 2 older brothers who weren't :) - but I see kids who just refuse to do what they are asked/told. How would my parent's have dealt with that? Why did they NOT have to deal with that (I wouldn't have even considered talking to my parents the way I see some kids today talk to theirs) . I guess the closest I saw was when one of my brothers was on a streak of breaking the rules - and he got kicked out of the house (he was out of high school)- it came down to live by our rules or get out. But I don't think they would gave done thst if he wasn't 18. I know I'm just rambling. I'm just glad that my parents had whatever it is that worked.
On Sat, 4 Oct 2003 16:25:07 -0400, KDK wrote (in message ):
I don't know how they would have dealt with it, but I know why I don't have to deal with it. When DD was small, if she refused to do something, I would just wait. Nothing would happen until she did what she was asked. I can be very patient. It's amazing how much pressure a person silently waiting for compliance can exert.
The other thing is mutual respect. I respect my kids, and they know that I don't make orders just for the sake of making orders. There's a give and take - the kids don't mind asking me for things, and they understand that I ask for things, too. We have talked many times about how mutual cooperation is absolutely necessary for any kind of organization to work: a family, a company, a group of friends. Following an occasional order is part of that.
I don't know why the kids that don't know me automatically obey me. Perhaps they sense I like and respect them, and would never jerk them around for the sake of showing that I'm in charge? I don't even think about the idea that they won't listen to me; the few times that happened, I was genuinely astonished. I gave the kid a chance to re-think his decision, and then had to bring out some consequences. That rarely happens.
The kids all know that I don't make idle threats. If I state a consequence, that means the kid then holds all the cards: pick one behavior or another. I would greatly prefer not to have to dole out the consequence, and say so, but what I say has to happen sometimes.
It's a very interesting discussion -- gives me a lot of food for thought.
When my mom gets really yummy stuff as a gift, or otherwise has really yummy stuff for some reason, *if* she offers a bite and we refuse, she says "I'm only going to offer once." and she ain't kiddin'! Smart woman, if you ask me ;-)
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