2000-year-old needlework

Jack Campin - bogus address ,in rec.crafts.textiles.needleworkwrote: and entertained us with

Thanks, very interesting. I am trying to imagine how the embroidery is done from your description. Lovely to see it but unfortunately I am an ocean away !

Sheena

I am quite close to Turkey , but don`t think i will be there so soon , but many of my aquaintances travel there quite regulary. Several years ago we had an exhibition with many with many OTTOMAN Carpets , [ catalog says 1999]. The carpets were woven [not embridered] with 900 [nine hundred Gjordash knots per square of 10 cm x 10 cm. , The rug you describe looks [from your description ] more like a 'Suzanni" ,,,which were made all along the `The Silk Road` , for several centuries and indeed combine embroidery and applique. The animals included in the pattern [again by your description ] might show of a more eastern [China ? India ? ] source .. where did you get the date from? Cloth dating 2000 years have beeb found all over the middle east [esp in dry places] but not with Animal embroideries, mirjam

I was fascinated by your website, particularly about the poor (but apparently contented!) train fanatic!

Pat

I saw this piece when the exhibit was in Munich -truly wonderful. It is actually quilted, you can see some batting where the surface is damaged. I didn't buy the Munich catalogue -the picture of this was too small to be really useful IIRC. The curators seemed much more interested in the more "traditional" archeological treasures. The label was particularly disappointing and IMO not even accurate. Can't remember at this point exactly how they described it, but do remember feeling that it did not adequately explain fiber content or techniques. Roberta in D

"Jack Campin - bogus address" schrieb im Newsbeitrag news: snipped-for-privacy@news.news.demon.net...

It wasn't a rug, definitely a wall hanging (shaped to fit the sloping sides of a yurt).

They had a sort of shamanistic feel to them, you get similar imagery in the ancient metalwork of Scythia and Dagestan.

That part of the exhibition was mostly the result of multinational archaeological projects. I imagine they threw every dating technique known to science at it, but the labeling didn't say what.

: I saw this piece when the exhibit was in Munich -truly wonderful. : [...] The label was particularly disappointing and IMO not even : accurate.

The labels in Istanbul were bilingual in Turkish and English (with exactly the same content in both), and I thought they were pretty good on the whole (until the rather sinister political motivations behind the whole show came into play with the more modern stuff). Perhaps the German labelling was an afterthought?

It seemed clear enough to me how it was made, though I'm not so sure about the neat double stitching. Did they use a double needle for it, maybe? Presumably the technique is still in use.

In Istanbul, the hanging was given a prominent position (as far as possible, the lighting had to be subdued) and was described as one of the most prized exhibits of the museum it came from.

============== j-c ====== @ ====== purr . demon . co . uk ============== Jack Campin: 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland | tel 0131 660 4760 for CD-ROMs and free | fax 0870 0554 975 stuff: Scottish music, food intolerance, & Mac logic fonts | mob 07800 739 557

Suzanni , aren`t `rugs` either they are really Bedcovers. Rugs could also be defined [ in the East] as wall rugs , or tent rugs. Just like the first Taperstries in Europe , who were mostly designed to cover the Cold walls of the castlers and provide some isolation.

I accept from you that it was YOUR impression, But i am a bit skeptical about Modern western people Automaticly, seeing in every bit of Antique cloth some Religious /Spiritiual /Shamanic [take your pick] feel. The mere touching or seeing anm Amcient piece of cloth , is always very exciting, more than finding a ceramic or metal objects, since we know that cloth was/is more destructable. Peolple LIVED in former times and made things for daily use. You remind me of a lecturer, years ago , who spoke Liricly about the Greek priestresses who between tending to their male custumers, wanted to be like the Rich ladies and wove cloth for fun and as a hobby ,,,,, I wasn`t the only one raising a finger and asking where she got that assumption from , and that it was more reasonable to assume they wove because that NEEDED that cloth .... I have Dug a bit in my former years, this is a country layered with Archeological sites, Not every Old piece is Shamanic, Holy or ??? It is exciting that hand made objects survived so many generations. From time to time i help students from various Faculties researching, old cloth. 1st rule i teach all , Don`t assume Anything, 2nd rule , don`t take modern concepts as having been THAN ,,,, 3rd , look accept the cloth as a talking object , listen to it accept it ... than start to research.

Thank you , for explanining this.

Double Needles are a rather NEW invention ,,,, but i have seen a Bedouin working with 2 opposite needles = crossing through the work 1 needle from up under and second needle [ with different colored thread from under up ]. Also there is a method , i learned from an other person , to make another kind of stitch that looks double but isn`t , mirjam

I totally agree. I remember years ago, as a little girl sitting in on my mother's embroidery circle, and hearing one lady say to another, "THAT is an interesting motif, where did you get it from, and would you mind if I incorporate in my next piece?" to whch the reply was "I saw it somewhere and liked it, go ahead as long as you don't make an exact copy of my work."

Fast forward to about five years ago, listening to a lecture on "ethnic embroidery" and hearing the lecturer solemnly state that these various motifs were fertility symbols, or long life symbols or what have you, and were deliberately incorporated in the designs for these works, which were obviously wedding or christening presents.

Olwyn Mary in New Orleans

Olwyn-Mary Olwyn Mary I am so glad you realized this fact , from your own experience and wrote about this here. I know a woman who `choriogrpahed many `folkdances` in her years of dancing, now many of those are danced and called Folk Dances , by anonymous ,,, first time we met she said :My name is annonymous!!! when i reacted a bit puzzled she explained. People find a cloth or a bead or a dry pod , they see , they even make visual mistakes , some people can`t see complete circles or squares thus they will make a different shape ,,,, It all comes out like this story ,,, A man wondered why his young bride always cut her fish into 3 parts, Asking her about it , she answered , that that was the way her mother did it !!! ,Visitin MIL , he asked her and got the answer that her mother did it that way. Visiting GM in law , he asked her ,, and she told him that when she married, she had only one small pot , thus she always had to cut the fish to 3 parts ,,, hence the tradition.... mirjam

We have a similar oral tradition about a woman whose mother always cut a ham in half before roasting. So she traced the origins of the "tradition" back to her grandmother who just didn't have a big enough stove to roast the whole ham at once.

With regard to old tapestries and stitched hangings, we have an oriental section of our museum that has a smallish room devoted to ancient Pakistani rugs and wallhangings, both stitched and woven.

My aunt had a humongo loom once. I'd love to learn how to weave, but Native American bead weaving is all I have space for now.

I'd love to learn to weave too. Have you thought about the "butterfly" or hand held looms.

Cheryl (just enabling)