Re: Copyright Question

Same way a new arrangement of an old song can be copyright. If the person who charted it got permission to use or adapt the original design, then the chart can be copyright, especially if it was charted from the design rather than copied from an old chart. In that case, the copyright would be due to the work of charting it.

Elizabeth

Now this brings up a reasonable question: How can a "recent" pattern be copyrighted, since it was copied off an original design that no longer has copyrights. It's not an "original."

How I miss that magazine. So many things to do. Granted, a lot of "crafty" stuff that didn't intrigue me, but an awful lot of beautiful knitted, crocheted, embroidered (including needlepoint) stuff. The only negative I can think of is so often times the directions were poor with many mistakes. I had to send for replacements. And I'll never forget the pincushion I did in cross stitch (gorgeous basket of tiny flowers) wherein the directions called for you to cut it to the wrong dimensions on one side and I should have seen that coming but didn't, so the embroidery was pretty useless. I could have framed it, but after being in a drawer for years, I eventually threw it out.

Dianne

Accepting at face value what you wrote: Something from 1820 or 1870: You can no longer *get* permission to use the design, unless it is something in a museum some place. Just imagine someone finding it in a store and then reproducing it. I didn't know you could copyright the "work" I put into charting a design.

This isn't an "arrangement", it's an exact duplicate. An "arrangement" would be taking the original and making considerable changes so that, even though you recognize the main theme, lots has been added and/or subtracted.

Dianne

The same way a recipe can be copyrighted. The list of ingredients isn't copyrighted, but the instructions on how to combine them is.

The *chart* and instructions are what is copyrighted, not the final result (or the original, in the case of a reproduction).

There's no reason you can't make your own chart from the original piece, now well out of copyright, even if someone else has already done that work and is selling their version of it. What you can't (legally) do is to *copy* the work that they have done.

-- Jenn Ridley : snipped-for-privacy@chartermi.net WIP: Oriental Butterfly, Floral Sampler, Rose Trio, Carousel (TW) Most recently Finished: Insect Sampler, TicTacToe Sampler, Snow Stitching log:

Does she get comnission from every bakery and hotel chain that bakes , let`s say a chocolate cake ? can she proove or know what recipe they used , and any way the book by her i saw in a friend`s house has many cakes i have in other cook books ,,, many recipes just are used by many cook books , Can She proove she hasn`t taken it from another cook book printed years ago ? This has all come to absurdity .. My old cook books i have used many times , some favorite cakes i baked at least once a month when the kids were small , served in my house and in school parties etc... do you say i now own the writer more money ? Do i own Margaret Hubert Who`s book One piece knit i reuse a lot , more money ...Deep down we all know this is ridiculous ... if we go on like this , Every one writing a note will have yto imburse their First Grade teacher for teaching the writing etc..... Buying a mag with patterns in it , doesn`t say i can knit only one sweater from it , or every pattern once !!! if i want three sweaters in the same pattern , but different coloring ,, i can do it , you can`t make me buy 3 copies of smae mag ...If a Grandma uses her mag patterns to knit booties for every baby she knows about , you still can`t make her Pay more than once for the pattern ... mirjam

Here in Israel libraries count lending of books and by the end of each year writer get [ a symbolic] payment for it . mirjam

And what about the FLOURISHING commerce in 2nd hand books ? mirjam

You Know what really makes me smile in your calculations ,,, Those `designer` charts you speak about [ andall of you relate to ] are Not knownin this part of the world at all , People buy her mostly Canvases already printed with the pattern , thus Once that is xsted , there is no way it can be reproduced. People wjo make their own , can `lean` on books that have many xst forms , they pick one here and one there and make their own unique [once in a time] work ... Thus all this calculations here seem a bit exaggerated to me. I inherited a folder with Folkloristic Xst and other embroidery patterns , the charts were at least 50 years old , I happily gave them to a colleague teaching embroidery who will use them in her classes, Nothing wrong with that ,, On the contrary i am happy somebody will like some of them enough to revive them .. over the years i taught knitting and crochet to MANY people , some of whom amde a living from it , according to you , i should get Royalties from each one of those. Should a Nobel prize winner Reimburse his Teachers from High school ? mirjam

Thank you You prooved my point in many ways ,,, if i read you correctly i can charge a fee , but only if i have enough money to charge it ,.,,,,thus i need to be a big corporation to get a fee ,,,, Thus all this Talk about Copyright ,,,,, indeed is just TALK ,,,, Talk and again talk .... In the exhibition that i curated and opened yesterday , one of the artists embroidered a Song speaking about life , which she gave as her present to PUAH and Shifrah , the 2 midwifes in Egypt, The song is sung By Ahinoam Nini , The Zrtist wrote a letter and got their permission to use the song , and that is that .. If she sells her work , nobody will expect her to share any of it with the Singer Since She put the work in her Artpiece ... mirjam

GOOD POINT Dianne ,,, and as i see it many many of those patterns you folk sell and buy are copies or Enhanced patterns from older patterns ,,,, Did anyone ever Imburse the first Sock knitter ? So many of those Charts are KNOWN to me ..... or parts are known ,, I think that all this Copyright thing has become a ridiculous balloon ,, from which maybe only Lawyers gain. My daughter sat in the bus one day when she hears Herself playing , she thought it was an open radio , but it was a cellular using it ,,,, she traced the company who sells this to cellular phones as their ringtone ,,,,, they have no intention of paying her royalties like the radio does [ meagre but something] every time theyplay any of her recordings....she can`t fight them .... mirjam

There is work involved in creating a chart from an original work. You have to lay it out, make an appropriate representation, choose the fibers and specific colors, etc. If the original work is out of copyright, then the person who's making the chart doesn't have to get permission to use the image. However, the person *can* copyright the chart he or she made from the image. Someone else could make their own chart from the original work, but they cannot "steal" the work done by the person who created the new chart and copyrighted it. Similarly, you could make your own translation of the Iliad (which is in the public domain), or you could reproduce any of the translations old enough to be in the public domain themselves, but you cannot freely reproduce any of the *new* translations that are still under copyright. Yes, the text has been around for ages, but the work and artistry of the new translator is copyright-able.

Best wishes, Ericka

Best wishes, Ericka

Copyright law certainly is sticky and confusing. Dianne

Almost. It depends upon the definition of "image." You own the original embroidery? OK. You get the owner's permission? OK. What you cannot do is look at an image/picture of an old embroidery in a book and make a reproduction or "borrow" any part of it. The embroidery itself may be old & in the public domain, but there are more recent copyrights belonging to the book's author, publisher & especially the photographer, plus the property rights of the embroidery's owner.

However, the person *can*

Good analogy.

Nancy Sue, Professional Project Starter

Yes, and there are lots of misconceptions about it floating around that help further confuse the issue!

Best wishes, Ericka

Right, sorry, I was thinking about the case where one

Best wishes, Ericka

This is why I'm glad a college buddy does copyright/patent/trademark law. I can always go to him for a "yes, you got it right", or "no, you're wrong; read Smith v. Jones".

Ericka i read your words

With Enormous innterest , I have seen many of the `new xst patterns sold and they include [great] parts of Well known Calssical artworks, are all those Contemporary `designers` paying any tribute if nor royalty to the classical artists ? of course not!!! in fact if your description of IMage use is the thing one should pay for , what about somebody making Her own painting or embroidery of ,,, let`s say Paris [France] can she include an image of Eifel Tower ? in her own description or memoire of Visiting Paris? Can i use a Brooch i bought in a city i visited and pin it on one of my works ?, where does it end ? and why stop at Image , next time anyone goes on and on writing under a Title in a Ng why not expect royalties for that ???? mirjam

I think you know that i am aware of the `line` , but having found out several time that this `line` is only valid for those of us who can afford to sue, as well as Seeing Too many people drawing the line where it suits them personally, i am a bit cynical about it all. When guiding stundets, i strictly guided them that whenever they quote from another book or work, they should Mention it..which is the first lesson about Copyright. mirjam