Architectural turning?

Hello Owen,

I've done very little architectural turning, but have met severa people who do it for a living. It is about the only type of woodturning that one can actually make a decent living doing. There are a few people, like Mike Mahoney and Richard Raffan, that make a living doing mostly bowls. For the most part, the architectural turners don't seem to join the woodturning clubs, perhaps they don't have time. From what I understand, the best way to get into it is to align yourself with a number of architects and get them to recommend you.

Fred Holder

Architectural turning IS what most of what turners do. Not that you'd know it by the books, websites, articles, and general discussion from the AAW or affiliate clubs. It's not the sexy stuff that gets talked about and endlessly debated in the USA but it's what's being done by the majority of turners all around the world. Silently and steadily for the most part.

Now, let's define the term here so I can get an idea of what you are really meaning. What exactly do you mean by "Architectural" ? I've seen that term relating to woodturning as meaning anywhere from chair rails to 18' x

16" columns to some of Ed Moulthrops' hollowforms. People define it differently so that's why I ask.

Personally, I prefer to use "structural" and the people I do buisness with perfer it too, even the architects. I do light structural (columns up to 6' tall and 12" diameter; Balusters, posts, Church Spires, newell posts, railings, etc.) and I do furniture, which I classify differently but I guess is structural too just on a small scale (rails, legs, stretchers, knobs, etc.) and I also have a classification of "other" that you could put in there too. I do production runs for some companies that need specialty parts such as handles (big ones!) for their commercial products or forms for molding and metal work.

It's not my main job by any stretch of the imagination, but it's a steady income and it's fun. I can't say from experience whether it's a steadier paycheck than the crafts or arts end of the spectrum because I'm just now getting into really pushing those things of mine into the public. I have a few galleries in the region handling those things but it's only been about

18 months. I've sold a few things and it's nice to get that lump sum instead of actually working for it. Relax guys. hehe

A good person to talk with or, even better, go see and take a class from is Ernie Conover at

regarding this.I can't really tell you about the earning potential as it really seems to bevery geographical. Around here (Southwest Missouri), the styles of houses,businesses, furniture and just everything is not about being "round". It'sall square. Everything. So there's not a whole lot of potential forwoodturners like there might be in an "architecturally round" area. Justlook around at the houses and furniture in the swap meets or flea markets,etc. See what's there and if there's a lot of "roundness" in the area. Thebest place around here is Branson. Lots of big houses and large buildingstrying to look like either New Orleans or Savannah, Georgia. Quite a few"roundness" going on there and the money to actually pay for it. I get alot of work from the furniture end of it around here. Reproducinggreat-grandma's chair rails or making custom stools for a house renovationwhere the guy is putting in a wet bar in the basement. Stuff like that. Basically, you're going to be making custom woodworking wages. Not bad but not a fortune either. You'll likely be producing 10's of the exact same object. It's rare to produce just one or two of something unless it's big (like a column). You need a well equipped shop too. More of a woodworking shop than just a woodturning shop with a lathe, bandsaw and maybe a drill motor for powersanding . You're going to have to find places to get wood stock cheap, fast, and easy. That can be harder than it sounds. We're not talking your local Home Depot here unless you want to pay to work instead of the other way around. We're also not talking about the sawmill down by the river either. You need to have a steady supply of the common local woods that is dry, clear, and available year round and in every conceivable size you can imagine. Best to know a or have your own kiln operator. Over the long term, you save money but it's a loss in the beginning. There's all kinds of things and it would fill a book (I'm sure somebody has already written it) to know what you need in this kind of production woodturning. This isn't like production bowl turning either. Maybe you'll get lucky and just be making one style of table legs out of red oak for the rest of your woodturning life. Likely, you won't. You'll be making whatever comes through your shop door and you need to be ready for it because they'll want it yesterday ... and 50 of them .... out of cypress (which isn't even close to local here).

You'll want to become best friends with building contractors (these are the people that make the call to you when needed ... not the architects), furniture restorers/re-finishers (they don't want to mess with producing things especially lathe items if they need it), wood suppliers from the sawmill to retail stores like Woodcraft (not only for supplies but because people constantly ask them "can you make" or "who can do this for me"), small furniture makers (they get some special requests sometimes ... you'll not get their production services most likely), and even the Home Depots types of stores (they get people wanting things sometimes too). Try the local cabinet shops and woodworking shops to see if they need somebody (not likely) or might be able to contract out some work to you (still not very likely but better).

Architects are only good when you're doing really really high-end stuff or very specialty types of things. They normally don't get down to the level of the person actually making the stuff. They'll be talking to the contractors. Only when something weird comes up (a spiraling stair case support pole that's a segmented piece with huge fluting wrapping around it up to 12' tall comes to mind ), is when an architect might need to talk with a woodturner about the project or hire them directly. There are exceptions, of course, but that's been my experience and those turners that I've talked to so far that have done this type of work.

Oh yeah, home and urban historical societies can be a good resource for work I heard too. In areas where that type of architecture is prevalent, you can introduce yourself to them and they'll keep your name on file for those cases where either homeowners/buisness owners or contractors coming into the area talk with the society for advice or to get their approval on changes. No problem of that here but I've heard other turners talk about that in the Eastern US.

This is just a start. Hope it goes well for you,

- Andrew

"Owen Davies" wrote in message news: snipped-for-privacy@adelphia.com...

I'd include larger columns, but your description is pretty much what I had in mind when writing "architectural."

Hmmm. Now you have me curious. If structural turning isn't your main work, and you are just getting into the arts-and-crafts market, what's left? Or isn't turning your primary occupation?

Regrettably, that probably makes this an academic exercise for me. I moved to Florida two years ago. Not much call for stair spindles around here, nor much else that isn't made of cinder block. Not that this factor comes as a surprise.

At the moment, this is just exploratory. It will be a long time before I am good enough to go pro at turning of any sort. It just seemed that this must be the meat-and-potatoes market for anyone who really wanted to make a living as a turner, and I'm so burnt out on my day job that anything even vaguely interesting gets at least a once-over for its income potential.

Thanks for your many suggestions. They help a lot.

Owen

Thank you Owen, for raising this seldom discussed topic. It expands the ng and probably involves many lurkers. I've also wondered why turners who work in art, general craft and restoration/industrial turning never choose to write about the latter. Maybe they are too busy to post, _or maybe they've had too few questions to answer and don't need to ask any. I believe restoration/industrial turners are as willing to share their expertise and trade secrets as the rest of us. Whatever the reasons for so little ng participation, I don't believe that this huge part of woodturning is just grim labor, a business/trade with no enjoyment of comrades or pride of accomplishment.

Thanks Andrew, for your very thorough discussion and insights from your actual experience. I hope this thread will generate many similar ones, because this work is what many turners mostly do and IMHO there's a place and need for them on rcw. Arch

Fortiter,

Your lathe equipment, along with everything else, requirements will jump by magnitudes once you start getting into large columns. But it's pretty cool to watch an 18' long x 24" diameter column being turned. They were glue-ups of course. One guy that I watched for awhile was smoothing it with a Stanley #5 handplane as it turned. You'll be asked to a lot of large fluting and other decorative "ornamental lathe" types of features so you'll need to heavily invest in routers, frames, etc. for this at least. I think I've seen someone make a small one of these and posted it on the web somewhere? I'm thinking it was a modified Serious Lathe? Not sure.

I've done the crafts market for non-woodturning items for a few years now but have slowly been adding the woodturning items to that. I'd much rather just demo turn at these events than sell anyway. A whole lot more fun. Turning isn't my primary occupation ... or, maybe more accurately .... not my main income by a long shot. I own and run a software development and technology consulting company. That keeps me busy most of the time. If it doesn't, and I start roaming the streets looking for trouble, I can fall into the other businesses. They're all small businesses and some are seasonal but it keeps me entertained when I'm not traveling or turning. I certainly wouldn't mind woodturning full-time but that's not going to happen yet. I have way too many other things going on. I think I would classify myself in the woodturning field as a professional amateur. My main aim is to explore the vast world of woodturning; trying all different types and kinds of woodturning while selling most of what I make; but not going hungry if I don't.

I don't know much about Florida except what I try to ignore in the news. I do hear that there's lots of money and building in certain areas. And with that, might come some opportunities beyond chucking up a hunk of exotic masonry between centers and giving it a whirl? Money likes custom made things so maybe there's something there.

That's a good point to bring up ... however unintentional. From my own experience in this type of turning and from many others in the same boat, it starts out tentatively and suddenly you get a large order of something and have to produce 50 of them by next week. And where not talking pens here either. If you aren't there already, you get real good at turning, real fast ... or sink. It's a different level of turning, really. I can't say I'm nearly as good or as quick as most professional full-time structural/architectural turners but I've gotten a whole lot better because of it. I also can't say that I share the exact same view as Ernie does about (a very general term here) production spindle turning versus craft and art turning but I do see where this type of turning really raises your skills and the "feeling" at the lathe and working with the tools. You feel just so much more confident in all other areas I think. So, the point of all of that is that if you do get into this type of turning, you really need to have solid skills to be ready to hit the ground running because you may have to. It's no time to be trying to figure out the skew, for instance. Know all of your tools so that it's like second nature.

I hear that! I'd say investigate it further .. ask around in your area and keep your eyes open. If there's an opportunity, I'd go for it at least in a small way at first. What other "profession" can be so much fun? Well ..............

- Andrew

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. It sounds like a nice way to pursue a variety of interests.

Owen Davies

Arch, It may be, like so many other occupations, that after a long day at work, they don't want to sit at a computer and type about it. They may not have the same enthusiasm to communicate about their "day job" as the hobby/ semi-pro does.

The comments about equipment and market niche are right on, imo. Most of = your work will be decorative (not structural) columns and stair = spindles. And, you'll need to deliver something that an architect can't = get from the companies doing this in a factory with a catalog. = Therefore, most of you work will be restoration and possibly repair, = too. You may also need to do carving, too. Working with architects means = working with a very particular person. And, you'll need to be able to = read blueprints (now there's an archiac term, they haven't been blue in = quite a few decades!). Dan

Hi Owen, and all. I have worked as an Architectural Woodturner for the past 7 years. I am not selfemployed. I work for a high end cabinet company in south central Pennsylvania. About 80 miles north west of the Philadelphia area. I do make a good living at this. And I will say that my yearly income is higher than a lot of college graduates. I am self taught, with the help of a few books and video's, and lots and lots of practice. I have been turning for about 15 years.

Architectural turning is a very broad spectrum. I prefer this term instead of calling myself a spindle turner. I've turned columns up to 9 feet in length by 22 inch diameters, and balls as small as 2" that were used as supports for glass tops. I have turned bowls and boxes as gifts for visiting CEO's and Dealers, and a special 50 year anniversery "Pennsylvania Cherry Bowl" 3" X 15" with carved dates and company names as a gift to the new owner of the company. As an Architectural turner, I will and have turned what ever is needed by and or for the company. I could go on and on about the different types and styles of turnings that I have done, but I think you get my drift . I have done turnings that have ended up in Japan, Mexico, South America, Canada, and from one end of the US to the other. At one time this company had over 250 dealers world wide. For about 4 years straight I was working an average of 56 hours per week, and my apprentis was doing the same.

3 1/2 years ago this company was shut down by the old owners and closed. Five weeks later It reopened under a different "Cabinetry Group" name. A year later, it was deceided that they needed a CNC Woodturning Lathe. This lathe,The Hapfo AP 7000 CNC will do all kinds of things to turnings. Twists of all kinds, beading,flutes,reeds, ect. I find it a boring job now. The new owners are not very interested in hand turned work, but they are amazed that a machine can do this. I still have a few specialty items that I hand turn, because the CNC can't do it. It could, but the needed attachments are very costly. When the company closed I went into a self-employment search. I sent out letters of introduction, with photos of my work, ( hand turned of course ), to over 200 cabinet shops, Architects, Historical Preservation's and Societies, and placed ads in various newspapers covering 5 counties in Pa,and a few major cities in 3 states. Ha, what a joke on me. This cost me a tidy sum of money that I did not really have, the results were poor. I ended up getting some work from a few local Antique Dealers, a lot of parts to make for a chair repair and caining buisness, but not much else. I have been doing the turning work for a one man furniture and cabinet shop, this guy prefers hand turned. What I found in my area were a lot of guys ( 6 ) using duplicating lathes, and taking on contracts from big furniture companys. I thought I might be able to fill a nitch, with some smaller shops, ect. What I also found out was that it was of no real importance that I hand turned, they could buy it cheaper from an automatic machine. As far as discussing this type of work on news groups, it seems to be of no real importance in the turning world. Look at any of the turning mags,AAW Symposiums, Provo Symposiums, and local AAW chapters and 99% of what is printed or discussed is about bowls, vessels, boxes, and the ARTISTIC turnings. One can make a bowl with one tool, a bowl gouge. Try to make 2 or 52 turnings that will look alike. Turning bowls is easy compared to this. The term " One of a kind wooden bowls" is a deceiving concept. It is easeier to make one of a kind, than multiples. OH, buy the way, one needs to know how to use a skew, to be a real woodturner. My opinion, a humble woodturner, Jim

Owen,

I didn't find the 4th Darlow boo on design very good, but it does have a huge emphasis on architectural turning, design and influences. Might be worth the read for that use.

Thanks, Joe. I hadn't seen it, and now will go looking for it.

Owen

Excuse me for butting in here, I'm new to turning and recently started lurking here (long time wreck lurker), but the first thing came to my mind was boats! Lots of high end woodworking there, perhaps you might come across a boatyard or boat restorer that needs your services...

I'm on the "left coast", near enough to think about hitting up a few boat builders myself. Hmm, thanks for getting me going!