Demo Deception?

SNIP

If you agonize over design, redesign and stop to ponder the "uniqueness" of what you're doing it takes more time than just turning. What deception? The demonstrator knows what he's there for.

Oh yes, given the uniqueness of wood and the nature of hand work, it's not the same from place to place. Unless you spend extra effort to try and make them so, that is.

Roughing always goes fast, because you're limited by the log. If you know what the final form will be you can do the final turn nearly as fast. Then you'll want to carve, burn and paint. Those take time. Friend of mine cores his stuff and said it takes six or seven minutes to core a 12+ bowl. For grins I had SWMBO time me on the next three roughs and it averaged nine. Of course I was turning at my high speed of 680 at the time....

Another good post, Charlie.

The original and still uncensored woodturning forum, rcw continues to allow us to wonder & wander outside accepted dogma. Although not meant to be presumptuous, our wonderings can be wrong while the establishment is usually right and immeasurably helpful to all of us. I don't count them deceptive, although many currently strict authorities had once wondered and wandered with us here.

Success, defined as becoming a widely known and accepted authority who can garner higher fees, often stifles change. Not bloody likely to happen to me, but success sure would restrict my wanting to change the status quo. If it ain't broke, I wouldn't try to improve it.

You are entertained, but you don't learn how to play football by watching a game although you might learn how someone else learned how to play the game. Similarly, joining an audience of thirty seated turners to watch a demo is probably more entertainment than instruction although the demoee might learn how the demoer learned how to turn his signature piece. One on one is instruction and, of course, should be entertaining. :)

At a demo by a well known turner from across the sea, I innocently asked if he would show us how to turn a .... It was a simple thing that wasn't on his agenda. He was incredulous and ignored me with a pained expression. Demos are, and should be well practised and set up before hand. No one wants to watch someone spend half his time selecting, roughing out and laying out a piece of timber. Well, not many of us, anyway. :)

I once posted here a suggestion for a 'reality demo' that mercifully was never followed up: invite a well known turner to demo his/her speciality in a phone booth using an AMT lathe to turn a vessel from no.

3 pine 2X4s using Harbor Freight's 8for$10 tools while his spouse is bitching that supper is getting cold. and the children are restless and hungry. I suspect a visiting expert would do better than Joe Woodturner, (not you Mr. Fleming), but in more than a few turning lives, that's not so very far from reality.

Here's to entertaining demos and being impressed and enthused, but in no way should anyone be intimidated. Everyone of us knows something that someone else doesn't or can do something that someone else can't. That's the way I see it, but YMMV. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

At our last club meeting on Monday (Beaver State Woodturners) the challenge project was a '5 minute' turning. I took in a 3 inch by 8 inch wide green Madrone bowl. It took exactly 5 minutes to turn. 8 years ago it would have taken me an hour to turn the same bowl. I do make sure to point this out when demoing, or when people ask me how long it took.

George, I can core a 12 inch wide by 5 inch deep bowl in about 90 seconds.

Like my Kung Fu teacher said when asked "Teacher, am I donig this right?", "10,000 more times." "But teacher, that is what you said the last time!". He just smiled and walked away.

robo hippy

There you are. I enjoy the time at the lathe for seven and a half minutes more than you. Glad I'm not forced to do it for a living, or it would seem like work.

Robo and George both hit on a couple of truisms. George states something to the effect that once an enjoyable hobby is altered to be something one does for a living, it may well lose its capacity to entertain and become a chore. There are those lucky ones that have income generating jobs that they can really and truly enjoy as well as they would a hobby. Robo mentions turning a bowl in 8 minutes that used to take perhaps an hour. Last night I went downstairs to my lathe, mounted piece of maple, turned, sanded and finished the outside in less than 20 minutes. A few years ago it would have taken a good 90 minutes and this one, done on the fly with no plan, turned out (pun not intended) to have such a delightful and classic form. Sometimes doing things without lots of planning produce exceptionally fine results.

Repletion is the key to becoming comfortable with something and getting better at it. Not just repeating the exact same thing, but learning from mistakes and pushing forward beyond your comfort zone. Learn the safety rules and be comfortable, find a mentor and keep your equipment in good repair.

I teach beginning dental students who are first learning to use hi and low speed drills. They need to learn hand-eye coordination, learn to do it in a mirror, and learn to create small tooth size sculptures. It is very interesting and entertaining.

If you have been doing the same thing for 5 years, do you have 5 years experience or have you repeated one years experience 5 times?

Charles Friedman DDS Ventura by the Sea Where today the air does not smell like smoke We are close, but not too close to the devastating fires Our hearts go out to those who have suffered losses

Can you equate five year's experience with repeating one month's experience 60 times? Repeating one day's experience 1781 times? Repeating one hour's experience 42,744 times? One minute's experience

2,564,640 times? One second's experience 153,878,400 times?

SNIP - of good stuff

For a long time, the measure of how accomplished one was as a turner was how fast you could "hawg out" material. For years I saw picture after picture, and saw demo after demo of turners stainding calf high in shavings grinning like idiots, or looking like they had performed open heart surgery.

I don't have that much time to turn these days, so I have a tendency to piddle when turn. I look at the wood, check out the lathe setup, play with my sharpening jig, use different tools, etc. It is fun for me.

And since I am in the trades, I would look at another "tradesman" and EXPECT him or her to perform their given task quickly and efficiently. There would be no excuse not to do so. That is what they do, and in some cases that is all they do, and that is actually why they are there in front of an audience.

I often run into "beginning" craftsmen when I am working on their houses. They are amazed at how fast I replace a door, put up crown molding, etc. But that is from their perspective. From my perspective I am where I should be time wise so that I can still make some money. It isn't any big deal to me or to my contractors as we are all about the same on projects.

I sure couldn't make a living as a production turner unless it was as a cat box shavings generator. I can get the rhythm going to turn certain things, but I can't keep that speed since it can be a couple of months between turning times these days. But put me in front of a miter box, and it is something I do sometimes as much as six days a week, 8-10 hours a day. Anyone that does a repetitive task like that will build speed.

OK... no one else bit on this... but I do hope we see pics of that - whatever it is!

Robert

SNIP

should anyone be intimidated. >Everyone of us knows something that someone else

Here, here. Nicely said, Arch. I have worked in construction now for about 35 years. Most of those I have been self employed as a contractor doing anything from framing to finishing, commercial and residential. There is nothing that will stump me as far as woodworking goes, yet I don't know how to do many of the things my guys do.

I cannot wire one of these new sophistcated AC thermostats, nor can I cut and finish granite for counters. I can paint walls and trim with the best of them (although I am slower unless spraying), but my sheet rock patchwork stinks. I can do small brick repairs, but couldn't do a whole house of brick. The list goes on...

I think the better you get at what you do, the more you realize how much is out there that you cannot do. You really realize the limits of your skills when you finally get good enough at something to realize how much more of it there is to get that last 10% to get to perfect. It doesn't happen.

We had a nationally known turner come to our club, and while he was a little snobby and a bit arrogant about his skills turning smaller objects (square bowls, lidded containers, etc.), he bent my ear off about his bathroom remodel. How high is the shower head supposed to be? How about the tub spout? What kind of fixtures do you like? He was a lost soul in the remodeling end of things, but a real king of the lathe.

It makes you point that everyone has their strong areas where they are good at doing something, whether it is their job or even their hobby.

We have a couple of retired guys in our local club that are pretty well heeled, and they go to any and every demo they can if they are interested in the turner. I learned from them that many of today's nationally know demo guys do a certain type of piece; the five minute bowl, the square bowl, the small hollowed vessel, the finial, etc. That is the part of woodturning they enjoy, and the one they are good at. So these guys go see them, knowing that they are going to learn ONE thing, ONE aspect of woodturning.

One of our members travelled to see a pyrography demo, so he could learn that. They did no turning that day, it was all about decorating your turning. He also went to see painting/staining/dyeing/finsihing demo, and again no turning. From what I see, woodturing is getting so highly specialized that many pros don't even turn more than one or two shapes or style. But that is their claim to fame.

I feel like you in the respect that I don't have to hold my hat in my hand to too much of anyone anymore, especially not someone that is a paid shill for a tool group or manufacturer. Besides, when we were voting on who came to the demos, if IIRC, we paid all of them to come, so I would expect them to have a little sense of decorum.

And for heaven's sakes, I think it is important to remember that this is just woodturning, not open heart surgery where these demo guys are the chief surgeons.

As always, just my 0.02.

Robert

snipped-for-privacy@aol.com wrote: snip of a pro's perspective on expectations of the speed at which work is done and its relationship to training, acquired skills and experience.

Chris Stott and Mark Sfirri (along with a lot of other folks I suspect) do 2 or 3 axis turnings that evoke/imply/look like a standing human form - mainly in profile. I'm working with adding a few more axises(?) to get the front view, and not just the side view, to look more like the human form - humans not being symetric merely about two or even three axis.

Kind of fun to play with, not requiring much wood - or time. In addition to adding two more axis, I'm turning some arms to stick on the figures - and will cut out some veneer fig leaves and add one to each figure - so as to not offend anyone's "sensibilities" (see Ashcroft - Justice Department - statue of bare breasted Justice ). I suspect that the fig leaf will be the focus of attention for each of these pieces which seems to me to be counter productive.

charlie b

I think you sell yourself short. I had a ball turning realistic looking mushrooms with some branch wood I had, all turned off center. It took a while before I could get odd shaped heads, and get them to lean over a while maintaining a smooth shaft with no bumps.

I suppose you are right. Sadly, the fig leaf will probably be the first thing looked at as well as trying to see if it can be removed.

But I think your (sculptures?) pieces are pretty damn cool. To me, they seem to have a feeling of some of the African shapes used in tribal carvings, or even the short pudgy guys even go back to the Mayan scultures. Very cool, indeed. I'd bet too that your friend is on to something, and that one of those colored to appear as a statue would look very striking on the mantle.

Robert

have you ever noticed that doctors practice while wood turners execute?

....and didja ever notice that a surgeon's sloppy joins will grow together and self heal, but if a woodworker makes a sloppy joint, it stays there. Guess that's why surgeons don't need to add grooves and beads to hide their ugly joins. Oh well, superglue can bail out both craftsmen. :)

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

surgeons add scar tissue to hide ugly joints, wood turners add shavings

Some. I'm more prone to adding brass key shavings, or coffee grounds. It seems that adding shavings/sawdust never really hide it for me, so I tend to 'celebrate' the defects.

Very finely ground coffee grounds (used - waste not, want not) make a great contrasting filler. And they're more or less wood anyway. Sorta...

...Kevin

I've been playing with that idea too, Kevin..

I've been saving the shavings from pen turning.. got zip lock bags (you get a LOT of those when you turn pens) of each wood that I use, providing its a distinct color..

Now on some pieces, instead of using the shavings from, say, the oak that I'm turning to hide cracks, I've been hand sanding them a bit wider and using blood wood or ebony to fill the cracks.. The more contrast, the more I've been liking the finished look..

mac

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