Scraper comment - anyone see NYW today?

Hi Robert, Good question that deserves a better answer. Sometimes I get true spindles and exteriors of end grain boxes etc. mixed up. I admit that I have held a skew level with the centerline or even dipped it slightly below center on the exterior of boxes. Why? No logic. The skew wasn't working so I tried gently scraping with it. It sometimes helped, more often didn't. Probably depended on the species and physical state of the wood ...and whether the skew was sharp.

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

I'm a scraper. Probably because I did flat work before ever using a lathe, and very often the only way to get a reasonable finish on gnarly stock is with a card scraper. When I got to the lathe it just seemed sensible to use what I knew.

As far as spindles go I live with a skew, or actually several skews, and the occasional spindle gouge. Interestingly enough, for spindle oriented face plate work I like an Oland for most of the turning with hook tools inside. I do use scrapers as shear scrapers on the outside before sanding, but that is not really what you are asking, methinks. Darrell

At an angle? As in "shear scraping?" Since, best I can determine, that's cutting without bevel support, it'd probably work if you could control the tool, and it'd make a nice surface as long as he was cutting down hill. On a piece of hard maple even a broadside scrape is not cause for anything coarser than 150, though I'd hesitate to try it on softwood or a ring-porous hardwood.

As to holding the handle of the tool at the waist, are you saying it was a long-handled tool, or was it a short-handled tool and he was cutting way above the navel? All those folks who cut with the wings of their "bowl" gouges ought to be used to that.

Now I like to do all my cutting with the tool handle as horizontal as possible, because it gives me shorter extension over the rest and greater support against the thrust of the work, both of which foster control for the cut and take strain from my arm. But my tools are ground to do that kind of cutting, so it's no real trouble.

Personally I think Norm's a wizard at the tablesaw and presents the flow of work very well. In his use of the "routah," he's definitely behind old Bob and Rick, and in his knowledge of the lathe, not up to Hout, or even my boy Roy. Not that it makes a difference, because I don't come close to any of them either.

Let me elaborate. He had a (looked to me) 3/4"x14" scraper with a traditional looking grind on the end. I am aware that some burr, and some don't, but I didn't see that on the TV. But looking to be somewhere between 20 - 30 degrees, he held a long handled scraper on the tool rest (1/4" from the work) at about 45 degrees (sorry Norm, if I missed the exact angle due to TV camera distortion). The scraper was completely supported, and he pushed it right into the work like he was using a gouge.

I had not seen a scraper used that way. I have seen them drug (unsupported, with a good burr) across a bowl with the tail of the scraper being at about 80 degrees, almost straight up, the gouge slipping along the surface (I'll bet like Arch is using his) and taking off whiskers.

I use mine to clean up sides on a deep, straight sided cylinder by cleaning out with a gouge, then pushing the scraper straight in with the scraper being horizontal and the placement at 9:30 or less.

Norm was turning a bun style foot for an ottoman. I just hadn't seen anyone use a scraper to cut profiles on spindles, and since he is kind of a mainstream guy I was wondering if I was missing something.

He does indeed have that tablesaw down cold. And you know, I keep waiting, but no one is calling me, so I don't guess I'll have a show soon myself.

Robert

Still working on my skewage, Darrell. I do well when the skewmaster I know is at my elbow, but soon after I lose the touch. I think it is because I don't do much spindle turning at all. I like bowls, lamps, etc, and even when I went through the pen stage some years back I used a "continental gouge" because one of my buddies had one and I liked it.

I was actuall shooting for more on the idea of what tool is being used on a true spindle, like a table leg, baluster, gavel, etc. Do you use your Olands on those, too?

Robert

Robert I am sort of a "whatever tool works use it" kind of guy but I usually keep to only a couple on a project because I am too lazy to keep going back to the rack. For "true" spindle work I use mostly skews, even for table legs and the like. Typically on something like a gavel I would rough with roughing gouge, size with a parting tool or 3/16" Oland, bead with a skew and groove with a small spindle gouge or a 3/16" Oland. Darrell

Sounds like he was trying to duplicate the profile of the scraper. Sort of using it like a molding cutter.

What you describe is the traditional way scrapers are used, if I'm understanding your correctly. Handle about flat, or slightly higher than the cutting edge, blunt grind (about 15° relief), using the natural burr from the grindstone to remove small shavings.

This is how I always teach newbies. I get them started on scrapers first. No chance of a dig-in and the skill level is low so they don't get discouraged. It takes longer to get the shape, but that's OK.

Just so you know, scraping is the method of choice for foundry patternmakers. Scraping gives them dimensional accuracy you can't get with shearing tools. Patternmakers regularly work to tolerances of plus-or-minus 1/100 inch.

This sounds like shear scraping.

Robert, I think Lobby got what you were shooting at better than I did as he mentioned a card scraper. Not being an ex-flattie, I think of a scraper as a robust handled tool. Truth is I use a set of burred hand held cabinet scrapers to finish cleaning up curved exteriors frequently.

As an OT aside, maybe we should consider a consensus glossary so that these words mean the same to all of us: "face turning" including cross, end and burl grain orientations. Same with "spindle turning", Also words like bowl turning, hollow turning, scraping, shear scraping, cutting, European style tools, scrapers, bowl gouges, spindle gouges. detail gouges, spindle roughing gouges.

Maybe we are all on the same page already or never can be, but the responses to your thread re scraping raises the question.

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

Actually, as I posted, this was the crux of my question:

Presentation was like a gouge. The angle of the tool itself, handle inclusive of the body was at app. 30 to 45 degrees off perpendicular to the material. In other words, he was using it like a gouge, the handle not being remotely close to level with the work, and the non business end of the tool being a few inches lower than the material.

You know, the vaunted teacher Mike Darlow just wrote a carefully written article in one of the wood mags of scraping vs. cutting when learning. He was pretty clear without saying it outright that he had a fair amount of disdain for those that scrape. He acknowledged that many find scraping to be their best bet, especially when starting out. I know of more than one white knuckled turner that is scared to death of a catch - and having a couple of heart stoppers myself, I remember why. But I could sense that Darlow didn't think scraping was a good thing.

I am in the Darrell club, I'll try anything that I think will work. I turn a lot on my Jet mini, and I have a couple of lower end 3/8" gouges that I bought that I uses for just about everything once I get the piece roughed round. These gouges have really shallow, wide flutes, and each is ground completely different. For spindle work, I have one ground with about a 60 angle, well swept back. For hollowing and scooping end grained (my favorite orientation), I have the same one ground into something that looks like a shallow Ellsworth ground tool. Since the flute is so shallow it has a lot of meat under the grind and it doesn't vibrate until you get waaaay down into the form. This grind is about useless on true spindle turning, though.

I didn't know that, but it makes sense. And in that context, Norm was trying to fit a brass wheeled socket caster on the bun foot. So maybe he was fine tuning the shape of the foot to fit perfectly inside the socket. That might actually make sense! Still... it was Norm's angle of presentation that got me.

Classic shear scraping. It is like Arch's cabinet scrapers except only the paltry width of the scraper.

Robert

Ahhh... now I understand what you're saying. Yes, I do that- The reasoning behind it in my case depends on the scraper. With the round-nose scraper, I start perpendicular to the work, and swing it about 10* every so often to present a fresh edge to the piece. It just saves grinding time that way. In the case of the square scraper (where the edges come off at 45* and meet at a 90* point in the middle), why a guy would do that should be fairly obvious.

I'm not in anybody's club- I just want to get the wood off efficiently, without too much tedious sanding. Sometimes a good cutter does that for me, sometimes a scraper is needed to keep the work from tearing out. I even will use a power sander, in a pinch. :)

A guy can learn a lot of stuff from watching others work, but it's a bad idea to simply accept that someone else's way is the best! There are so many things to do just about anything, that limiting ones' self to any set of tools or orthodoxies is really doing a disservice to your efficiency.

Hi Robert

Robert have you ever looked at the bits they use in the wood lathe copiers ??, I would classify them as scrapers, and are notorious for their rough finish on softwood. No I didn't see the NYW as I also rarely waste my time on the boob tube. However turning wood with a scraper I do know about, I started turning as a hobby in the lathe 50ish, never seen anyone turn wood nor the tools they used I set out with what I knew in respect of metal turning, (I did never see anyone turn wood until about 15 years ago) so I made my own tools, and found the angles that worked for me, my family had/has a blacksmith/machine shop and car repair/build garage, and I could use a big old metal lathe to use for my wood turning. I found real quick that the denser the wood the better a surface I wood get off my tool, yes all sanding was hand sanding both with or without the lathe turning. Always did and still do more bowl turning than spindle turning, and I could get a decent surface with a scraper on hard wood, still lots of sanding though. After I got the bowl and spindle gouges maybe 15 years ago, and Raffans turning book and learned myself how to use them, I would never go back to using scrapers as I used to do, if you can get a gouge positioned so it is able to cut, you will get a much better surface than using a scraper IMO. On spindles the skew is by far the better tool for straight grained softwood, but it does keep you on your toes with (for me) the occasional #!@** runback screw thread cutting action, that was NOT intended. However there are times that the wood will not cut well or that it is difficult to get the normal tool in a cutting positioning, that is when the scraper will come to the rescue or the tool in hand is used in a scraping way.

SO I'll cut if possible and scrape it necessary, and on spindles it is skew, gouge, or if nothing else works, maybe a scraper, but it better be hardwood.

Have fun and take care Leo Van Der Loo

On Apr 21, 3:18 pm, " snipped-for-privacy@aol.com" wrote:

Yes.

I have a rack mounted to the legs of my lathe. I use whichever tool looks sharpest and will get in where I need to get it. I usually make my last cut with a skew unless I am having a day where the skew just isn't working right.

If the burr is gone off the scraper I'll run a thumb over the gouge to see if it will work. If I'm making a pen or similar, I'll just crank the rpms up and grab the skew and go from rough to finish. If they are all dull, I'll take a few licks with a diamond to see if I can revive whatever I picked up last. If not, I'll grab a couple of 'em and walk over to the belt sander.

It's just me in the basement. If I hadn't told you, you would never have known that I don't do everything exactly perfect. ;-)

Some days I can work the skew like a symphony conductor works a baton. Some days I make a lot of random single-lead screw threads. It's been a while since I've had a really bad dig ... but that just means that the next one is edging closer.

One thing is certain ... when the wood goes flying, that piece is done.

FWIW, I usually use a 3/4 Sorby oval skew with a slightly convex cutting edge. But I also have a big fat flat skew that sometimes works when the Sorby is having a bad day. The BFF skew actually has a slightly concave edge from an over-zealous sharpening 'event'.

Bill

SNIP

known that I don't do everything exactly >perfect. ;-)

WHAAAT? Not perfect? I would never have suspected.

;^)

You know, I think I am seeing a pattern here. Seems like everyone just kinda grabs whatever is handy and starts.

I thought I was the only one...

Robert