She asked if I was going to sell any of the bowls I make. To be completely honest I never gave it a thought. So I have a question. When y'all started turning was it more of a hobby, something to do as relaxation, or as an adjunct to other construction activities? I see it more as relaxation and an opportunity to create, as a balance to sitting in front of a computer screen
7:30 - 5:00 five days a week. I take enjoyment in seeing something actually taking shape under my direction within a rather short period of time. Gardening offers the same although the gratification is spread out over the summer. I give my bowls away as gifts and carted a dozen or so over to China this past Christmas to hand out to wife's siude of the family. When you first started thinking about selling, were there doubts about the quality of your work and if anyone would actually but the things? Comments are appreciated.
"Kevin" wrote: (clip)something to do as relaxation, or as an adjunct to other construction activities? I see it more as relaxation and an opportunity to create, (clip) ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Almost everyone starts out with this idea--relaxation, creativity, enjoyment. I have a book on the subject of selling arts and crafts, where the author "proves," in an early chapter, that you MUST end up selling your stuff or quit. At first you place them around the house, and give them as gifts. After a while each your friends has more than one of your bowls, and their smiles of appreciation are beginning to look a little forced. Then the bowls start to pile up, and your effort to continue is pushing against the backlog. So, according to this author, you must start selling.
The problem is that, for many people, this changes the attitude toward the work and the time spent. Unless you are REALLY successful, your hourly rate of return will be quite low.
For myself, I prefer not to sell. I turn only when I am enjoying it, and I DON'T CARE if a little project takes a long time. If a job is a failure, I just shrug. It it turns out well, I take it to the club "show and tell."
Kevin, I started turning with the idea of selling my products. I was already selling boxes and small furniture pieces, and was trying to find something other than concrete work to do. When I first started, my pieces were rather primative, but functional, and there are always bargain hunters. As my skills improved, the prices went up. I don't think that I am collectable yet, but I have a few regulars. If you don't want to sell,and are running out of people to give them to, there are all sorts of non-profit organizations who love to get things for raffels, door prizes, and fund raisers. Schools, churches, women and children centers, wild life rehab places, etc. Even if you don't sell, someone will eventually come along and offer to buy one, and the first thing that comes to mind as you are trying to figure out a price, is which new tool, or piece of wood are you going to buy next. I was a semi-pro for almost 10 years (that means that you make enough to support your habbit and even pay some bills, but not enough to quit the day job).I finally quit the day job over 2 years ago, and haven't looked back. Turning is more fun than when I started because I still learn something every day. I can't imagion that ever stopping until the day that my birth certificate expires. (thank my dad for that quote). robo hippy
You need to decide exactly what you want your woodturnign time to be for you. Look around at the craft shows, art shows, collectible shows, etc. and figure what your pricing would need to be to make it worthwhile.
In my city there are about million turners that dream of turning "pro" doing something with their craft. I think that the reason it is so much fun for people to turn is that it is a very polite craft that be learned by just about anyone. So it is a great hobby for fun and relaxation.
As a side bar, it reminds me of when pottery courses were popular so many years ago. The fun part began with the creation of an object from a lump of clay (found wood stump) and molding the material to your wishes (turning) and decorating the piece to your whim (finishing). Then you had the feeling that you created a piece of art from nothing.
But woodturning is just so much more manly than pottery. Same idea, though.
As a full time carpenter/remodeler I do not build cabinets unless for money, nor do I hang doors, put up crown mold or trim out rooms or whole houses unless I am paid for it. Measure, cut, fit, place, nail. Next piece. All in a day's work. I rarely cut or nail a board for fun.
But I like woodturning. I have been doing as a diversion for about 8 years (don't watch much TV or sports) and love it. I can take small scraps and glue them up and have instant material; I can go get a chunk of my neighbor's tree when he has them trimmed, I can find something when hiking that needs to be "chucked up". Lots of free or cheap material to experiment with, and each chunk presents it own challenges.
I have indeed sold some of the things I have made, but more as a lark. I don't want to ruin the most fun hobby I have had in years by having any type of demands put on it.
If you are just going to sell stuff for fun, look at it as a great way to pay for new gouges and sharpening stuff! Maybe even a new fishing reel or a sleeve of golf balls. Then it's fun and worthwhile. If it gets to be drudgery, then you will have taken something from yourself that you seem to enjoy a lot.
Otherwise you wouldn't have all those damn bowls laying around! ; )
1 Take it as a rule that you won't make a living out of it - only a very few people do so.
2 I started as a hobbyist as a counter to the computer screen and now am obsessed - well my wife says so, so it must be true.
3 Be selective in the craft fairs you show at. I go for few but quality ones. The general circuit is a (to me at least) a waste of time. Think carefully about what is on the other stands at the show - are you proud to be exhibiting your wares in their company?
4 The greatest thrill I ever had (well fully dressed anyway!) was when a total stranger (ie not a friend who was just being kind) pointed to something I had on a stand and said "I'll buy it". It was only a few quid (bucks if you are the other side of the Atlantic) but the money didn't matter - it was the satisfaction that counted.
5 Decide whether you want to churn out cheap stuff or one-off pieces. Either is valid but, in each case, don't underprice. That is a disservice not only to the professionals, but to the rest of us who are trying to run it like a business even if we rely on a salary to pay the mortgage.
6 Think about quality all the time. You can always tell a turner by the way he (usually) picks up your piece. Are you embarrassed that a pro is looking at a substandard piece with your name on it? On the other hand, you are, or should be, your own hardest critic. You need to cover not only the cost of the wood (and even if given it, I price it at cost price) but the tools, electricity and above all time. On top of that there's the factor "This is a damn fine piece of turning and they can jolly well pay handsomely for it"
7 Burn your failures (of taste, finish or design) - or cut them on the bandsaw to see the variations in thickness. For a long time, I used to bring failures in to get assurance from my wife that I was right and a piece was indeed substandard. She would exclaim "But it's beautiful", wrench it from my hands and put it on display in the lounge. When I am out, visitors are greeted with "My husband is a wood turner and sells his stuff, here are some of his pieces". I cringe knowing that they are being proudly shown my failures gallery.
8 I am about to retire to spend more time with my lathe but am well aware that I must set aside time to be doing other things. Indeed it is said that if you really turn professional, you'd better get a hobby (ie not turning).
I went back to turning about a year ago, after reading posts about turning green wood... just saw a piece of old firewood in the bed of the truck one day and decided to throw it on the lathe.. the wood turned out to be ash, and made a pretty good "round box".. My wife (3rd wife, so we've only known each other for 6 or 7 years) had never seen me use the Shopsmith for a lathe and it kind of blew her away that I could "do that".. lol Since I still had part of a cord of mixed hardwood outside from the previous winter, she thought it would be cool to turn some Christmas presents.. (see
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)As it "turned out", I was turning 5 or 6 crude (though I didn't think theywere, then) things a night... small bowls, boxes, etc... and she was stainingand finishing any that weren't finished on the lathe..The problem was, she liked EVERY damn thing I made and squirreled them away assoon as they were done... I think in a couple of months, I turned about 50things and we gave away 3!Added a Oneway chuck.. more stuff in the garage but no giving away.. She gave me a Jet mini for Christmas... MORE (and a little better) bowls and stuff... I gave a few away and she was upset, so I just went back to making 'em..
then, she comes home with a 1/4 cord of plum.. "don't burn it, turn it.. I'm lovin' it..
Anyway, about 7 months, another $700 or $800 for band saw, bowl chisels, scrapers, etc., etc. and a lot of learning, and we have 3 cabinets (made for them) full of finished stuff that she won't part with.. lol
In the last month or so, since we've gone to a couple of art fairs, she's let me part with a few pieces... mostly from friends or neighbors telling folks what I'm stuffing the shop with, and asking to see a few.. I've sold about 12 that way, from between $8 and $35....
No big sales volume, but not bad, since I'm not really trying to sell yet.. the income doesn't really stop the bleeding in the check book, but it pays for the new bowl chisels I ordered and the buffer system she ordered..
I would never consider trying to make a living at it, it just wouldn't be fun any more... I make what I want, when I want to... if some wants to pay more than it costs me to make it, cool.. If they want something made to order, I have lots of folks here that I can refer them too.. We'll do a few shows and fairs eventually... just bought a dozen plastic bins in anticipation of transport to fairs.. they'll be full of scraps and firewood pretty soon.. *g*
A few months ago someone at work wanted something for his wife for their anniversary. We scheduled a time for he and his wife to come to the house to pick something out.
But first my wife had to give an OK on every single piece and only the stuff that she did not want got put on the table for show.
"Kevin" wrote in news:d6vg7g$tn7$ snipped-for-privacy@rainier.uits.indiana.edu:
My grandparents always gave away at least half of the yield of their garden. It brought them joy and satisfaction to do so, and was their way of saying thanks for their blessings. It was a practice that we adopted, when my wife and I first got our own garden plot.
My woodworking has followed somewhat the same path. I have no doubt that I could sell for money, and may pursue that path, if and when the time is right. Until then, the value of my giving the gift exceeds the value of a marginal dollar.
When it stops being a hobby, and starts being a job, does the fun go away? That's the question you have to explore.
All of my woodworking is for pleasure and relaxation. I have a friend that sells some of my stuff at craft shows and any money taking in goes to new gadgets or tools. It would be real hard to make a true living at it, but the bit of extra income gives a bit of flexiblity to buy new toys! Hope this way of thinking helps your thought process.
As soon as you find out that painters think they're the only "artists" in a show, and start to hang out with the rest, there's good company. You also meet a lot of other folks who "could do it too," or even "better" there. One or two of them in any show are even turners. Leaving the kids - whose college the sales pay - to watch the stand, and shooting the breeze with wood folk and potters makes a great day or weekend.
Though you may see them only a couple times a year, you get to see the pictures and hear the stories over breakfast or dinner, and share a cuppa at the campground. This year I have pictures of my grandsons, who were only burden to their mother a year ago September.
Couldn't agree more. I made the mistake of taking on a job as "suggested". Absolutely hated it. I don't mind selling the odd peice, but having to do it per sombody else's direction... you can't pay me enough. I turn to enjoy it , making a job out of it does just that, it makes a job out of it. (spits on ground).
About 10 years ago, after doing flat work for about twenty years, I stumbled into turning. I was already hooked by the time that first awful weed pot came off the lathe. After a brief run of excitement over somewhat free gifts, we discovered that my wife couldn't give the stuff away fast enough to stem the tide of turnings. So selling was inevitable.
One of the problems is how to get into selling without selling out your hobby. Nailshooter nailed one of the dilemmas when he wrote--
I have indeed sold some of the things I have made, but more as a lark. I don't want to ruin the most fun hobby I have had in years by having any type of demands put on it.
I avoided this problem by NEVER making a custom order. If someone wanted something special I would agree to make one in my choice of style, my choice of woods, my choice of finish and on my own schedule. When the project was completed, I would call the person to come and have first shot at buying it.
Very seldom did the customer ever not buy the item. If they didn't, someone else did. Because I learned that when I liked what I made, others did also.
Now, about selling. I have avoided galleries like the plague after my initial exposure to the artsy types. I found my best market in gift shops and drugstores. Putting a load of turnings in my truck and selling wholesale to retail establishments is much preferred to the craft circuit. Although I do a bit of that also.
I never intended to make it a business or the major source of income. But over the years it has kept the stash of turnings at a manageable level and given me a very enjoyable hobby that has not drained the family budget. The sales covered the costs of equipment, wood, gadgets, finishes and sandpaper. In essence, giving me a very pleasurable free hobby. My golfing, fishing, hunting and collecting friends don't have it as well.
Good luck on finding your own niche in the turning world.
I was a part time photographer for about 17 years. I really enjoyed it for a long time. But, toward the end it became a drag. It was a secondary income and became very time consuming. I am now back to doing photograhy only for fun. But during that 17 years I learned a lot about part time business/hobbies. Here are a few things:
Learning to deal with people is just as important as being good at your craft. Bed side manner is important.
Just because you are taking in lots of money doesn't mean you are making any. I think I ended up paying people to take their pictures when I first started and didn't even know it.
Once you have a contract with a person for a job they become your boss. You are never really working for yourself.
There is more involved in running a business than just taking pictures (or turning bowls). All of that other stuff that needs to be done to run a business is not as much fun but it is necessary.
I took a few years off from having any hobby until I couldn't stand it any more. So a few years ago I started looking for a new release for my creative energies. One day I wondered into an restaraunt that had an art gallery attached. Low and behold they were displaying some pieces that were made of wood and (I found out later) were made on a lathe. I started to research how woodturning was done and before long ended up buying a lathe. Next came all of the extras needed to make the turning process work efficiently. All of a sudden it was getting as expensive as all of the cameras and studio equipment I had just gotten rid of. But it was fun and I was hooked.
In the past few years I have given a lot of bowls away. More recently everyone has been asking me if I plan to sell them. At first I was reluctant. But, my wife took some to work and sold over $200 worth in one day. Then about 3 weeks ago she sign me up for a small one day craft show. It wasn't very well advertised and very few people showed up but I sold another $600 worth (25 bowls this time ranging from $20 to $75 each). I think I'm hooked again.
I have a few more years before I can retire but I think woodturning will become a part time income once I do. I like talking to people about what I have made and I like making a few bucks in the process. But I don't think I will ever do this as my sole income. I hope that I have learned some lessons from my first business so I don't get burned out again. One thing I like about woodturning over photography is that no one has to see my work in progress or even know what I am working on until it is done. If you are taking pictures of people they are there with you while you are creating. That can be annoying. But woodworking lets me work at my own pace without someone looking over my shoulder the whole time. So far the only pressure I feel is that which I put on myself.
In September 2000, I published a series of articles from the newsgroup on the subject "Making a Living Turning Wood". There were some pretty good messages in that series of articles taking up about four pages in that issue.
This current thread has a lot of good information that I would like to share with my readers. If you don't mind my using your post in an article titled, "Should I sell my Woodturnings?", please let me know. Each post used will carry the credit line of the author of the post. If you do not wish to have your posting included in that article, please e-mail me to say "don't publish my post" at . If I do not hear from you, I will assume that I have your permission.
I'd like to thank all of those who responded with comments. Many were confirmations of what I already thought while others brought to mind new ideas. Having a hobby transform itself over time into a job may work in some cases, that is, still remain enjoyable. I do like the idea of donating to churches and such for the purpose of raffling. I did have an idea of turning a few dozen candle holders and giving them to my church for gifts to parents of the newly baptized. I suspect that before we have to rent storage for the bowls and other output I will have ample opportunities to give away/donate items. Now if some of the folks would like to actually purchase, well there is that new bowl gouge I saw on the Packard site ....
IMHO, that's a good choice... The thing that I hope that I never give up is not only the enjoyment of turning, but the freedom to take as much or as little time on a turning as I want to..
I just don't think it would be much fun to be "on the clock" and be worrying about spending too much time on a bowl or something to be profitable.. YMMV
All interesting comments. From my corner of the shop. I once started carving shore birds and ducks as a hobby in my leisure time --loved it-- had the house full, gave them to all my friends who expressed an interest, then one day someone said "what would you charge to make me a pair of these". OK, seemed fair enough, then it was "I need three of this and so, and I want them for Christmas presents (it's 15 November)". suddenly I was overwhelmed with commitments I didn't want to meet, it became a chore, I got grouchy (I'm told), and finally my wife said "I think you should just quit the bird business.
Bottom line, I haven't carved a bird in 5 years, except in secret - and to meet my specs and on my schedule. Commercializing ruined a good hobby
I do sell my work but I do not take orders for special items and I turn only what I want to. I did take an order once but I did not like the deadline commitment nor turning some design that I was not to fond of doing. I may not make a living this way but I'm happy with what I'm doing and I get a bit of extra cash for wood, tools and such things.
I've got a comission for some flatwork right now from a guy at work, and it's pretty fun. He wanted a custom samarai-sword display case for his apartment, so I said sure- but set a number of rules for the job to make sure that there were no unrealistic expectations.
First, I do the design and choose the wood- he gets to give a thumbs up or down, but can't pull something funny like wanting a butternut frame with red oak panels, with all the parts slathered in cherry stain or something equally unappealing.
Second, he is not allowed to tell anyone what he paid for it. If he tells anyone, any further projects for him get an automatic 500% markup. (This can burn you badly if you underprice something because it seemed like a fun project- pretty soon you're doing production work for WalMart prices if you're not careful.)
And Third, he gets it when he gets it. If it takes a year, it'll take a year (it won't, but that's the deal) and the final price will be set when the project is sitting in front of him. If he doesn't want it when it's done, it's going to become a DVD cabinet in my living room (see rule #1, and you'll understand why I wanted that one!)
Now the useful thing in this case is that the guy has tastes similar to my own, and he approved the first plan right off the bat, which also happened to be the plan for the aformentioned DVD cabinet, minus the shelves, and with some minimal mounting hardware added. But even if the situation was completely different, the same rules apply. I've found that setting a couple of rules, and making it very clear that they must be honored for any work to be done has been very beneficial for me. Not only does it set up the proper relationship between the client and myself, but it also has an instantaneous 'artist' effect- people expect an artist to behave a little oddly, and are generally willing to wait for their comission, lest they get a dose of that fabled *artistic temperment* we've all heard of at one time or another. When they're just looking for a standard widget with a spec sheet, that's when the trouble starts.
It's no way to run a business, but it makes for a good hobby.
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