Enough claptrap.

Mr. first of all , i don`t remember [ but i might be wrong] that people here just say "So and So said something else " people might mean [and usually do ] mean that So and so wrote /or said something else , since you too QUOTE a book or some article and use the same way of arguments this a very strange `complaint.

I am saying here that when you say HISTORICAL Documents , you MUST specify exactly what you mean by that,,,,, since we all are acknowledged for instance that History wasn`t always recorded exactly as it happened. The person with the writing ability WROTE the FACTS ,, Those of us who are close to my age, might remember that in the USSR , Encyclopedias had take out pages, Biographies of people were Changed according to the will of the Authorities, to fit political goals. In older ancient times written documents were kept by the few who could write, who knows how `exact` those numbers are ????? if you could provide the SOURCE where you got it, i still would like to have a second source. Than i would like to ask you where you got it from , or where the original finder got it from , who copied/translated it ? under which circumstances ? In my last Moebious i had 548 stitches on my circular , according to you those knitters could knit a round like this in 2.74 minutes. assuming they didn`t loose a stich or two while mooving from one needle to other ???????when were circulars invented ????? As i said i have proofread and met too many reserachers and students, and one must take such a DECLARATION with a bit of salt, unlkess you have several documents that name this number about several people....at different places and times who achieved this number of stitches per minute. When we say PROOF , it is proof like that , not even a fact loosely quoted from another book , and when quoting one must give the quoted place ,,,, I have a strange habit i call/write to people /publishers etc to verify facts /sources etc....You would be amazed how many URBAN or let`s say Published legends are surfing around,,,,, But why go further, i proofread sometimes ago, an article where amongst others an ex student of mine , was questioned about her art work`s sources and begining. . Let`s say that some of her claims STUNNED me. Because i remember quite well how when and where she started, but her printed artistic bigraphy looks legendary, to say the least. People make Political or PR use with facts now ? why assume that in former times people were different. Let`s say somebody wanted to be hired to knit by some rich person, couldn`t she /he write such a number about her/his ability to knit to be more wanted by the hiring person???? When you wrote you CV , did you always write the EXACT abilities you have ? or did you `beautify` them a bit ? As to your constant refference to the famous sheath making it possible for people to knit faster , i believe you that some people knitted faster , but i also remember that many of those sheaths were used by herders , and other people who walked about and knit here and there, should i believe that they knitted all the time even when walking their herds in hard mountain passages??? Did they never stumble over a stone ??? Thus in waht conditions were those people Trained ??? since you seem to know so much about the importnace of this training , i might assume that you know how to train people to knit faster, ???? KNITTING IS NOT A MARATHON ,,in a Marathon you run and have to look forward with your eyes to see the way ,,,,, and keep mooving your legs, Knitting has different Moovements,,,, you can not compare that ,,,,And even by your own Marathon example , you might need for the quick knitting a healthy , strong person , well fed , with a strong bladder , provide him/her with an enviroment that will not disturb him/her while he/she knits , just like during the Marathon the runners are not botherd by anything else , all they have to do is RUN ,,, nothing else ,,,,, have you tried to sit and knit in the circumstances those women lived ????? The last chapter in your letter just showed me the error of all your writing , while you claim that you told people they had millions [ did you count that yourself ???] of errors, in their calculations, You refuse to listen to reasonable women here who all speak from their OWN experience of life long knitting = thus well trained according to your own ideas. while you willingly accept writings of personaly unknown to you people who quoted a number from some source , whose ,motives you don`t know. The fact that the numbers you provide are mostly coming from people who in our time would be called Slave drivers or Child abusers , doesn`t disturb you at all . Those people overworked children and women to their early death , and the moment those people `couldn`t provide anymore` they were thrown to the street, or the grave. I Doubt any document written by these slave drivers, who pushed people to the end for a meagre salary . Maybe if we put you in a unheated room and give you meagre rations of foul food , we might squeeze from you all kinds of `working speeds ` you are so eager to reach ??? mirjam ps if you indeed told people they had millions of errors , maybe you just had a problem with reading one 0 too much in the number 200 ...

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen
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That brings back memories! My Dad and Mum used to do that too, especially when they were travelling. Now that she's gone he and I still do it occasionally! Mind you, my Irish is a bit rusty after years of living in Canada but my accent comes back beautifully when I spend time there! LOL!

Eimear

Reply to
ejk

Oh, how refreshing to read that :-) Thanks!

I'm not Irish but have always cringed when people use the word 'Erse'. People shouldn't use a word unless they are 100% confident of its meaning.

Mary

Reply to
Mary Fisher

Yes, and it's enriching.

Mary

Reply to
Mary Fisher

...

Yes :-(

The only reliable sources are original which can be checked against other original and contemporary ones. It's historical peer reviewing.

...

LOL!

:-)))))))))

Yes ...

Excellent post, Mirjam. Thank you.

And I'm going to pursue my quest to discover some of the history of knitting in Britain,* it could take years. Luckily I know a lot of people with the qualifications to guide me in the right directions.

I began yesterday with some reproduction record books, from my own shelves, of the wool trade in England. I learned nothing about knitting because it was about spinning and weaving but read that there was a belief in the C18th that women were no good at spinning wool, their skill was in spinning linen. That was the urban myth of that time and in that place by some employers, it doesn't mean that it was true.

I looked in excellent books about spinning, other textile crafts, archaeological records and the like (I didn't bother with non-academic books) and found nothing about knitting. It's going to be a hard slog and will have to be fitted in the moments between all the other passions in my life.

Mary

*that's more than enough for the years I have left, world history must be left to someone else. British knitting will be a small part of that.
Reply to
Mary Fisher

That's exactly what they did.

Alan

Reply to
AlanEdgey

Several years ago a translator who was asked to translate a novel , found she couldn`t translate some of the events that took place in lace factory , somebody adviced her to contact me and together we worked out that she should try and contact such a factory with a history , in UK. They were very helpful and she gotr loads of info from their files and she was confident that heer translation would be better for it ,,,, You might start by checking the Bibiliographies of existing books ,,, AND also Contact the WORLD WOOL organization , whose headquaters are in London ,,, mirjam

Reply to
Mirjam Bruck-Cohen

Thanks, Mirjam, but I have several starting points already among professional historian friends. I wouldn't go to London unless I couldn't avoid it in any case :-(

Something came up while I was on the scooter this morning - so not at the pc. Olwen Mary and I both related childhool experiences of England at about the same time. Mine were not exactly like hers. That doesn't mean that either of us was wrong, just that you can't extrapolate a general 'fact' from any one commentary.

It's very important to remember that - in every part of life. If it's ignored the truth becomes distorted.

But you know that :-)

Mary

Reply to
Mary Fisher

Anyone? All I know is that E. Zimmerman worked to popularize them in the US after WWII.

Last year I discarded a bunch of circs that were brass with finely braided brass cables.(The cables had work hardened and broke) The workmanship looked German maybe 1920s?? Maybe those needles were valuable historical artifacts : )

Excellent!

I have hired hundreds of cooks. Many of them did not write very well. No written CV!. I took them in to the kitchen, and had them make me an omelet. From that, I could tell how fast they were, how careful they were, how clean they worked, etc. If I were hiring a knitter, I would have them knit me something. I would hand them a swatch, some yarn and needles, and say knit me a copy. You watch someone knit for 15 minutes or so, and you will know if they know their craft. It will not warn you about drinking problems, but it tells you if they know their craft.

One thing that I discovered is that there are different knitting systems that use different knitting sheaths and different needles. I have not worked with sheaths that might have been used by herders. Gansey needles and their sheaths are not suitable to wear while walking. If you are knitting with a gansey sheath and you must get up, then you have to readjust your sheath when you go back to your knitting. I am sure this made gansey knitting a much worse chore for mothers with child care duties and for wives that had to check dinner.

Yes! I think I could train most knitters to knit with less effort and strain, and thereby knit faster.

I know blind runners that have run marathons in less than 3 hours. Knitting is a marathon in that one must sustain effort. Even a knitting a sock takes more than 3 hours. That is sustained muscular effort. That is sustained stress on the wrists. I suspect that many serious knitters spend as much time knitting as serious runners spend running.

Anyone can make a mistake. Only a computer can make a million mistakes in a minute. I taught my computer to count correctly, and let my computer do the counting. That is why they paid me the big bucks. That is why this machine was designed for database programming and does not do graphics well or fast.

I accept valid observations form any source. However, is 30 years of experience; 30 years of experience, or is it one year's worth of experience

30 times, or 6 months experience 60 times? Back in the 1970s, I knit for 5 or 6 years. I thought that if I just knit a little longer, I would get to be a better knitter, and like my product more. However, I was knitting the same kinds of things the same way. That was 2 months experience - several times, and in 5 or 6 years I did not get to be a much better knitter. In last 5 years I have gotten to be a better knitter so now I have 5 years and 2 months experience and I knit maybe as well as a10 year old daughter of some fisherman in the past.

One of my interests in knitting was that the speed of knitting as opposed to nalbinding allowed the fast production of clothing for seamen and fishermen, allowing an explosion of commerce and fish on the fast days. Over all, knitting improved the quality of life and nutrition from the middle ages on.

Many textile workers are still poorly treated, even in the US. The knitters of the Dales were worked very hard, but the compensation was more than they could make as contract knitters so there was fierce competition to be hired into Dales. Many senior academics treat their students poorly; so should we disbelieve everything that comes out of any university just because the graduate students are overworked and badly paid? Medical Interns are treated terribly, so should we disregard what our medical doctors say, just because they are part of a system that treats young doctors badly?

My computer has this thing about counting errors. It counts my typos. It even counts all the typos and misspellings in every RCTY posting. Then it keeps this little list of all the posters and how many errors they average per sentence. It is what happens to computers that are born into slave-driving-engineering firms where advancement is by finding errors in other's work : ) Aaron

Reply to
<agres

It must be very hard to inhabit a newsgroup with such inferior contributors ...

Reply to
Mary Fisher

Too much cringing causes wrinkles.

Reply to
B Vaugha

By and large, RCTY posters write better than engineers.

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Reply to
<agres

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