Beginner's Questions

Hi Adam

Can't help on the Seattle area - I'm in the UK - but a google search might help.....?

I started Tiffany-style stained glass (the copper foil technique) about 4 years ago - and went on an intensive 4-day course with one of the glass shops.

Much depends on 'what you know already' I'd been interested in electronics for many years - so soldering wasn't too much of a challenge (although assembling stained glass is rather different from assembling electronics equipment!)

Over here in the UK the glass suppliers will sell you a 'starter kit'

- typically containing

soldering iron oil-filled glass cutter grozing pliers cutting square solder copper foil flux patina tinning block clear practice glass burnishing tool and an instruction book

I'd add a silicon carbide grinding stick and a hand-foiling tool to this list.

As I intended to do this semi=professionally, I also invested in a Morton system - which is a cutting surface with a selection of jigs & gauges that make it easy to cut a number of pieces of glass to excatly the same width or angle. This isn't essential for starters.

The other 'easy' projects are flat suncatchers - especially geometric shapes like stars - again - all straight lines.

Practice on cheap clear glass (beg, steal or borrow offcuts from your friendly window-glass or picture-framing company). 'Proper' glass can be more difficult to cut, and more annoying when the cut runs the wrong way!

Probably the simplest starter projects are boxes or terrariums (planters) - as they tend to consist of straight line cuts. It's a good idea to practice

Hope this helps - enjoy!

Adrian Suffolk UK

If you can't find a good class, any class will do to give you some basic techniques. Your interest and enthusiasm will do the rest. The only class I took was part of the adult ed. program at the High School. Nothing special, but good enough.

John Bassett John and Christina

Yellow pages..... GLASS, STAINED and LEADED. Your local SG retailer is the best place to learn and get your stuff, and they really need your busines. Good luck!

Contact north west glass in redmond and see if karen gunderson is still teaching .

Also call john at JAXS on bel-red road in bellevue. Both have excellent classes

Hi Adam:

There is a fantastic place not far from you and their website will give you a list of their dealers. The website is

and they are located in Woodinville, Washington. I haven't been there yet, but am told it's a great place to watch them actually MAKE glass. They make stain glass and sell to glass dealers worldwide. I live in BC, not far from the US border and go to Bellingham all the time, if you go to Spectrum Glass, let me know if it's worth the drive. I may spend a weekend out there and go to see for myself.

Jeannine

A friend I was visiting in Whistler had taken the tour. He said it was interesting but lasted less than an hour. If you buy your glass in the US I would recommend Northwest Art Glass in Redmond, WA. They have a huge selection and great prices. I bought some glass at Kona in Vancouver and thought it was quite expensive, but then again, I think they're the only show in town.

What part of BC are you in?

Seattle Stained Glass has very good evening classes. Excellent teacher. They also sell glass and can get whatever you need in about a week or less. They get it from NW Glass (the only distributor in the NW) and are sometimes cheaper. NW Glass (also goes by names of Cascade and Elliott Bay Glass) is expensive. I hear M and M in Tacoma is cheaper. Buy almost all of mine from mail order places. Almost half the price. EX: Spectrum 96 clear is over $8 a square foot at NW and SSG but around $4.60 plus S&h mail order.

That is expensive. I forgot that I was getting the highest discount at NW, I have no idea what their retail prices are like.

[...]

They may "really need" your business, yes, but I think most here can attest to the fact that there are "good" local retailers and "bad"--indeed, horrid--local retailers. I live about 15 miles from a decent-sized (pop. ~500K) city, and the dominant retailer there (there are only two; one's quite small) gouges customers on everything from class fees to materials/equipment/tools. I do much, much better buying on the 'net, and better yet when I occasionally tag along with a friend who can buy from a wholesaler who's about 50 miles away. As for classes, you might check with some local art centers (the one in my community offers a variety of art classes, including at least one SG class each quarter) and/or community colleges. You *might* be slightly better off taking an introductory course from a retailer, if only because they likely have a variety of tools/equipment available for students' use/testing. (This isn't true about the exploitative retailer I mentioned; they, for example, only carry Toyo cutters.)

Speaking for the consumer, JG

What you call gouging, they probably call making a living. You have every right to buy where you want, but realize that the superstores put the mom and pop shops out of business. Next the net stores will put them out. The way it works is they sell at a small markup until all the smaller competition is out of business, then simply raise their prices to where ever they want. You have to decide if it's worth your while to save a few bucks, and not have the convenience of a local place to shop ever again. It's a tough choice I know. I sell at high prices compared to the net because I need to, to pay my rent. But I'm there to teach, and demo every tool. You can hold the glass up to the light and touch it at my place. Is that worth paying extra? That's your choice. As far as wholesalers that sell to retail customers, they are not long for any business.

I live in Langley, it's about 1/2 from Vancouver...and yes...Kona is the only large place for glass out here. I have been for Redmond before, but didn't know if that glass shop, I will have to make a day trip out there sometime soon. Thanks for the info...do you know if they have a website?

Jeannine

I took a tour with my host, the tech guy, when at the GAS in June. Agree it is not long, but impressive if you like the hardware and the massive melting of glass. Much less so if just want to see a lot of colored glass since it is packaged as it comes off the line. Best to go early in the day. Call and ask about tours.

here pointed out that their retail prices were high. I wasgetting a good price since we hauled over 2 cases of glass out that day.I took a fusing class and was quite satisfied. They also teach stainedglass. One of the guys in my class owns a glass shop in Victoria, BC.They teach stained glass there also. Here's a link to some other shops in your area. Not sure how large they are.

vj found this in rec.crafts.glass, from "jk" :

] You ]can hold the glass up to the light and touch it at my place. Is that worth ]paying extra?

sometimes, definitely yes.

----------- @vicki [SnuggleWench] (Books)

's not what you take, when you leave this world behind you;it's what you leave behind you when you go. -- Randy Travis

I developed a relationship with my local glass seller. I buy wholesale now, but I still buy from him as well and his prices are expensive compaired to shopping on line. Why?

-Every high quality sheet of glass is different.

-Ive gotton so much free advice. I would never be where I am today by buying on line.

-The price of glass is really cheap when compaired to other things that go into a stained glass panel. Price = 20% glass and 80% labor. If you change the first to 10% by buying on line cheap glass, then your panel is worth 50 % of the price because it looks only half as good. Panel #1: glass $150, Labor 20hrs, price $1200, profit $1050, satisfaction High Panel #2: glass $75, Labor 20hrs, price $700, prifit $625, satisifaction medium.

- If we don't support mom and pop stores they go out of buiness, then the wholesalers. Then we all take classes in Hobby Lobby or Las Vegas. Nothing inbetween.

Liam

Hi, Liam. While I agree with your comments about supporting local retailers and the relative cost of glass as compared to the total cost of a panel, you've completely lost me in your mathematical illustrations. Whose satisfaction are you talking about, the customers, or the artists'? Satisfaction with what? Appearance or profit?

I'm not sure that expensive vs. cheap glass makes a 50% difference in the value of a panel. It might alter the value somewhat, but not 50%. Frankly, I'd place a much higher value on the overall level of craftsmanship (good soldering, properly fitted glass, mitered corners of the frame, neat beading, etc,). It doesn't make much difference what the glass costs if the craftsmanship or design sucks....

I'd be interested in your additional comments about pricing. In your #2 illustration, it appears that you cut the labor rate by $500 for the same number of hours. Are you saying that you charge a higher labor rate when using more expensive glass? I don't understand what you are telling us.

He's saying people will pay more for a panel made with good glass than for one made with crap glass. The result, since it takes just as long to make, is that your effective labor rate is higher and you make more money by using the more expensive material. The "satisfaction" claim seems to refer to the feeling of the craftsman.

I suspect the numbers are just chosen to illustrate that point, not because he really believes that the price ratio is exactly 1::2. I don't do stained glass myself, so I don't know if there really is much of a difference between local and by-mail glass. Others on the group will no doubt address that....

Regards,

Mike Beede

RIGHT ON - LIAM! And I've found glass that I really needed locally that was NOT available from the big wholesalers. And your point about learning so much. Between the retailers and this NG, I am very thankful for the wealth of knowledge I have to answer my questions. And ---- I LURK a lot too!

Hal

Lousy technique, great glass and design and color, looks real nice and will sell faster and command more Great technique, poor color choices, cheap glass, static design will be a lot harder to sell, and will have to sell cheap.

the best of both worlds.............MY LAMPSHADES. the cost, out of pocket is about 18%, of the net (which of course, I get to set) to me. I keep track of time and materials. Have about 23 years experience and about 1,075 units, mostly shades. The cheap stuff from the 3rd (and 4th) world countries, touted as "Tiffany" has not yet been a problem for me....... someone spending up to a couple hundred dollars for a TIFFANY lamp, was/is not going to be a customer/client of my work. someone looking for quality work, accuracy, and being able to actually talk to the craftsman to get what they want tend to be people I deal with. If you cannot tell the difference (or care) between a "yugo" or a "lexus", buy the yugo!