OT : Completlely OT Wedding & best friends question

Okay gang - I'm pulsing this oh so unopinionated group - seriously, as I
believe many of you have better or more experience than me, etc, blah, blah.
Warning - this is long 'cause I feel compelled to give some background.
So, our best friends have 4 kids, who are essentially like ours. All
acknowledge that we're closer with them than any "blood" relations. 3
girls, 27,23, 18 & boy almost 26. We're extremely close with the 3 oldest,
the youngest is the thankfully gotten more mature, difficult ADHD with
serious hypochondria issues (but smart). The oldest girl & brother have
been really, really close forever - and the next girl almost as close since
the later teen years. Brother got engaged in August to the long-time
girlfriend who is also about 25 - they met at VA Tech, and are ardent alums,
with lots of friends from college & high school still in the area. He was
one of the partying type - even if an engineer - and they're great.
Wedding planned for Memorial Day weekend - all good - Sat. afternoon. His
parents are very, very, very conscientious of treating their kids like
adults, being responsible & most of all not prying. This is to the point of
often abrogating the "parent decision" thing. Comes from a good place - but
he was an only child, very poor, with a stepmother and father who'd come
from Europe. She had a big family, great parents, but when younger, her dad
was very strict, and very kind of overbearing as to what should be done - so
she's quite sensitive about meddling - and a socially kind of shy person
(not in the work world - just the strictly social one). I'm helping them
with the rehearsal dinner (as I've done lots of special events for them),
and the son had actually asked me to do this with his mom. In general these
are very generous, social welfare conscious people. Just kind of space
cadets with the mundane.
Here's my dilemma:
Last night was over there hanging out (DH was doing high school hockey
marathon in the area). Youngest kid there with other teens - so all
pleasantries, etc during dinner. After kids gone we're finishing our wine,
chatting about the wedding. The dad says "I just follow orders." OK, then
we talk about the rehearsal thing - which is now at 1 pm on Friday (way out
in the country at some manor house) and they're thinking about a brunch. We
talk options, and I point out that perhaps just brunch for those actually in
the rehearsal would be okay, but not for the "rehearsal dinner" as many of
the close out-of-town friend/family won't be in yet, and suggest maybe an
earliesh, relaxed dinner, so that then the younger set can go out and do
whatever & the older folks (like us) can hang out. So far so good. Then
mom says I need to take her for a dress - she has an e-mail from the bride
whose mother is considering having alterations done to a black dress she's
already worn to have it tea/cocktail length. OK - I'm surprised. Dad says
he's already been measured for his tux - great.
Now...I say "so, are the girls excited, have they ordered dresses?" To
which the reply is..."They're not in the wedding." My eyes flew wide open,
to my big "HUH???" Mom shrugs, and the dad says, well the couple are doing
what they want, and, well, you know, they have a lot of friends, so....I
don't think the girls are offended. I say "well, was it the 3 (as in
including the youngest) or none thing?" They say, no, just they have a lot
of friends. I'm trying not to blurt out something, and then the dad says
"Well, I gather they were asked if they would be offended first." Huh. I
know no ill feeling was intended, but I really was surprised. Came home
with DH from the rink, and as we're eating the midnight supper, I tell him
this. He completely freaked out for the girls. Point being that it's not
about them being offended but having incredibly hurt feelings. Plus, just
asking someone if they'd be offended implies the offending decision has
already been made. We know these people well, and years ago she wanted to
ask people if they wanted to be invited to a kid's bar mitzvah before doing
the list - to which I told her "you don't ask people that - either they're
important enough for you to invite and then they'll respond - or they're
not." So, these girls would never tell their brother that they're offended
- but both DH & I are really a little concerned that the parents missed the
boat, which the brother totally bypassed about their feelings being so hurt.
These kids are all in the same age group, socialize together a lot, and for
goodness sake - the bride only has 1 sister. So, now what they haven't
thought about is we think the groom's sisters have absolutely no role in the
wedding. Evidently the parents didn't even suggest to the groom that he
should ask his sisters first, and let them offer to not be in the wedding if
it would be too much, and to show they have value in his life, and future
life. These are the girls that asked me to give the fiance a piece of
jewelry when I was divesting in the fall. DH's first response - these are
his sisters - maybe don't ask the youngest, but the other 2 should be in
there before the gaggle of friends.
So my dilemma is - to I suggest to the mom something about being sure that
the girls feelings aren't hurt? For her to mention to the brother that the
sisters should have some role, value, in the wedding - seriously - the groom
& his family are part of the wedding as well. Cause as it stands they are
totally on the outside looking in when that wedding week comes along, and I
just see a lot of hurt happening on the side. DH thinks we should find
some way to broach the subject - I've already laid the thought that at least
the rehearsal dinner is the chance for the groom's family to show their
graciousness, etc. Ugh. Or are we (whose only child is a furface)
overrecating 'cause we love all these kids? Honestly, I think the parents
just didn't even think about making sure that the son also takes into
account the feelings of his own family. I'm sure it just blew right by.
Reply to
Ellice K.
I have been in the wedding industry for a VERY long time. It is common for the bridesmaids not to be the siblings. Often they are asked to participate in other ways (such as presenting the guest book, doing a reading at church, presenting the gifts at the alter, or singing a song at the service.)
The bridesmaids are the BRIDE's choice and it is possible that she has her reasons. I have seen both brides and grooms to have honor persons of the opposite gender as well. It may be that there is a limit to the size of the wedding party that would make it too large if she included the sisters. The persons chosen may be very dear to her (sisters of the heart??). Many brides are not intimate with the groom's siblings or as close to them EMOTIONally. This could have been a hard choice for her.
I would let the matter lie. The dynamics within the family are influx as the newlyweds find their new place it. This is what the engagement period is all about. Will mistakes be made? Most likely, but interfering will add outside pressure that may disrupt this process.
HTH Bobbie V
Reply to
On 1/14/12 11:55 AM, in article jesc1g$an1$ snipped-for-privacy@dont-email.me,
Yup, I understand much of this. And personally feel a lot has to do with the overabundance of ridiculous merchandising with websites & tv, and the movement away from actual courtesy. I've been doing events for about 20 years, and have seen the gamut. For me, I try to remind people about being gracious towards their guests, and their own family.
This particular wedding is a weird mishmash as the groom & family are very active with their synagogue, while the bride is a pretty not participatory Christian. Not slurring - just how it is. So, in a really unique twist, the college friend of theirs that was present at the bar/party where they met, got a mail-order ordination of who knows what denomination, and is doing the ceremony, however the county will not accept him as the legal authority, therefore they're having a magistrate present to sign the documents.
Just as an FYI, Jewish weddings do not typically have the additional readings - though someone may be honored with performing certain blessings. The more standard is that there is a ceremony in synagogue at the Shabbat services before the wedding, and the groom's family would be honored with candle lightings, etc. Certainly there is no such thing as gifts to the altar, but I have seen songs done.
True. Though in this case the reason we're a bit troubled is we know how close all of them are. And our reaction was this is one of those situations where the young bride is falling into the "everyone I was ever friends with" thing is invited or participating, but as we know - most of those people will be out of their lives in a few years. But the family is still your family. These are young people that have socialized together for a long time, visiting at their various colleges, arranging parties together when they're all in the same town - the bride, groom, his 2 oldest sisters. When the groom has been away, the bride has been quite involved even then with his family - even for the 2 years before the engagement. I know for a fact that months ago these girls with the fiance, were excitedly talking/planning about the wedding festivities. Hence, I have to think it's an odd & shortsighted thing to have them with no role whatsoever in their brothers' wedding - at least the oldest 2. No issue with the younger one at all.
I think what troubles us most is that we honestly believe it's a sort of unintentional hurt to the groom's sisters. The parents really are oblivious about some things and even if the bridesmaid's are the bride's choice - isn't there some level of parental guidance or the like put upon considering the whole picture. As it is, the sisters are essentially just guests at their brothers' wedding - and that is not how anything has ever been with them. To the point that at one affair I felt that the 2 oldest were having too much of a say, involvement in the 3rd kid's special event.
For us, at our wedding there was no question that DH's sisters wouldn't be in the wedding - they're much older, not close, and kind of horrid to me. In my prior more traditional so to speak wedding, honestly, my DM made it clear that I had to ask my SIL (DB's wife) to be in the bridal party - and she was the PITA she is, but I did it, and honestly, it was the right thing to do. The other 3 girls were just fine with it, and that's life - but it honored my DB in some way as well.
I get your points. I don't know - DH & I were talking about this over brunch. I'll see the daughters sometime soon, and be able to pulse them about how they're really feeling. Clearly it's OBE about the bridesmaid thing, but I'd like to be sure that the parents/groom do whatever to make them feel included. The girls/young women are way too polite, and shy of discussing really emotional things with their parents (they do that with me - they think the mom is too out there & behaviourally conservative which is not true at all, and we all know that dad is an example of the smoke coming out of his ears whenever he is faced with his little girls being not so little anymore) to actually have told the parents they're feeling a little hurt, or whatever. OTOH, they would definitely tell me when they see me if they're at all concerned, bothered, hurt or really "it's all good." I have to take them all shopping for clothes anyhow!
We'll see - thanks for the input.
Reply to
Ellice K.
Like Bobbi, I, too, have "done" weddings for years -- alterations, wedding planning, etc. Protocol is that the groom's sisters should NOT expect to be in the wedding *unless* they are very close friends with the Bride. Same thing goes for the brides brothers (if there are any) -- they would only be groomsmen **if** they were very close to the groom. It's easier finding "jobs" for the extra men in a wedding (like the brides brothers) -- they can be ushers. "Jobs" for extra women are limited to taking care of the guest book! As Bobbi said, extra men or women can do readings or sing and I have been to weddings where there were several readings and several songs done by different people. I'm sitting here wracking my brain because I keep thinking there is something else a woman could do to help besides taking care of the guest book. Even if they aren't involved somehow, you could always suggest that the groom mention that he would like to have small corsages for his sisters. That's a way to let everyone know that they are family and thus important even if they are not given some sort of job either during the wedding or at the reception. OOOOOOO if the "church" or the bride doesn't have a wedding planner to assist before the service, the bride could always ask one of the sisters to stay with the wedding party before the service begins. Even if there is a wedding planner, one of the sisters could still help do all the little things that no one ever thinks about and it IS a very important job. Also, someone needs to be there just before the bride starts her walk down the aisle to make sure her dress, train, veil, etc. are all laying properly. Even if there is a wedding planner/assistant, I have found that a bride is usually in need of close female support as she is getting ready to walk down the aisle. Sure Daddy is there with her but he's, well, a HE, and a wedding planner might be there but s/he isn't really close to the bride. I don't think there is a problem with you talking to the sisters to find out how they feel. For all you know, the bride might already have asked them to take care of the guest book -- which is often done by two people, not just one. I *do* wish I could remember what the other thing is that people are asked to take care of -- VBS. It's hell getting old -- LOL! Anyway, let us know what happens, OK? I'm nosy and like to find out how these sorts of dilemmas are resolved. CiaoMeow >^;;^<
PAX, Tia Mary /\___/\
Reply to
Tia Mary
I'm afraid if there is any hurt it has already been done. Having things changed by someone else won't change that.
Joyce in RSA.
Reply to
Joyce in RSA
I agree with the others...let them figure it out. And if there are no obvious hurt feelings, don't create them.
There are ways for groom's family to participate. I like the idea of corsages for sisters of the groom to celebrate them as part of the "host" families. As another job, as TM was brainstorming, they could be asked to plan and/or administer the post-wedding departure - bubbles or rose petals or whatever...hand them out to the wedding guests.
There are plenty of ways they can be involved other than as attendants.
Reply to
Susan Hartman
Honestly, I wouldn't have been surprised if this had been a smaller thing.
I know there are many ways to involve an extended wedding/bridal party. That said, I'm pretty sure that the sisters have essentially been left out of any thing. My sense is that this is sort of becoming one of those "all about me verging on bridezilla things -but this bride is indeed a very lovely & intelligent woman, but it may just be some falling into that easy trap.
FWIW, there also may well be a cultural difference in the ways in which Jewish weddings are handled, along with my geographical background than in many versions of gentile weddings. So, in my personal experience with family, friends weddings' of similar background the family involvemenet may be different than many of you are used to. For sure, it was astonishing to me the first time I went to a wedding at some Baptist church in suburban Atlanta, and it was all about the mints & cake, and the big deal being who the bride had asked to serve them. From my little event business, I've done a good variety of weddings, from huge Catholic weddings to rent-a-clergy the groom doesn't believe in anything but the bride is half Irish Catholic/half Lebanese from New England - with 6 siblings. In that one, they decided to have only 1 attendant each - her closest sister, and his best man amd just ducked having to deal with where to make a cut. And of course a good amount of Jewish weddings. And since the bride for this wedding isn't Jewish, her plans, expectations are different than what his family, background would present. Honestly, even the processions are different, with the groom & bride each being taken down the aisle by both their parents - who also join the couple under the chuppah. So, perhaps my experience is a different expectation.
I actually always suggest to my brides' that they have some sort of flowers for the immediate family, even if they're not actively walking down the aisle in the procession. It's a gracious thing and lets those people know they are not just guests, but part of the family. So I suppose it gets down to my having been raised to remember to be kind & gracious to those who love you, and all your guests, and this certain idea of joining of families - and frequently today there is a lack of the idea that hosts should be gracious towards others, as opposed to the "what are you doing for me" shown to the extreme in the bridezilla shows.
Anyhow, I'm not going to make any big stink, but I will hear from the girls what their perspective is as I have to take them shopping. Thanks for the responses.
Reply to
Ellice K.
On 1/16/12 9:16 AM, in article snipped-for-privacy@mid.individual.net, "Karen C in
Oh, I get that. I'm actually really good with florists & caterers. Doing the event coordination thing, for me I find that I'm regularly being the diplomat between bride/family & the florist or caterer. To get what they really want & the florist can do, and cut through some of the ridiculous demands that won't work or make sense. I've had a bride less than 3 weeks before the wedding change her mind for the 4th time, then while I finally work with the florist to get what she wants - being to add some more calla lilies into the centerpieces and take out some carnations ( which I think the mother had put in). Pretty cool centers - they were built down inside of a glass globe. Then in the midst of this suddenly the mother starts up with "I don't see why we have to pay $40 for these - I could do it." Needless to say the mother does NO crafts, arts or the like, works as a financial analyst, and has basically left everything to the last minute. The bride yelled at her, I asked for a minute with the clients & did a facts of life, flowers and weddings talk - pointing out the time issues, and that she'd be buying these things at retail even if I got her the globes wholesale. We then went on. After they left, I stayed with the florist a bit, and fortunately I had gotten there earlier to find out that the florist was considering tearing up his order from them. We were also surprised that the mother came - would've been easier with the nice but flaky bride.
As a rule, the other thing is that good florists will not allow other flowers to be brought in. As in the infamous mother of groom who wanted to go buy extra corsages at Walmart or the like to bring to a wedding. We made it very clear that she could have flowers given to whomever - their special friends, etc - but that they must go on the florist order. No florist wants to have some not so good or horrible work be seen at a wedding, and then someone will ask "who did the flowers?" and be told, without the little footnote that Oh-, yeah - those extra pieces were by whomever.
Ugh, the things that happen. Ellice
Reply to
Ellice K.
On 1/16/12 1:35 PM, in article CB39D81D.50F0% snipped-for-privacy@verizon.net, "Ellice
A bunch of stuff.
In the poor netiquette thing, I was discussing with DH this interesting response, discussion. And he pointed out to me that he hoped I wasn't sounding like I was arguing with people. Not as if that could ever happen....
So, I just want to be sure that you all know that my responses aren't meant to argue, but that I've found it pretty interesting to see how we have different expectations, experiences. That's all. And to be sure that all of you know that I do appreciate your input.
DH gets the thrill of seeing me in person - so he's aware of my frequent quick talking, and the fact that since I can spin him up in person, knows I could do it unintentionally electronically - without all those intonation cues & facial expressions. So, please - I do hope that Bobbie, Mary, Sue - you didn't get some bad karma from my responses. And I apologize if you did.
Thanks, Ellice
Reply to
Ellice K.
On Mon, 16 Jan 2012 20:38:12 -0500, "Ellice K." wrote:
I just watched the whole thing go by with morbid fascination ! Our weddings seem so simple by comparison, far less who does what. Half the things you mention like the intricacies of corsages and who becomes a bridesmaid, whoooosh !
That said, I have a big mouth but I don't think I would say anything, the die is cast and whatever you said, either way someone would be unhappy with you. Best leave it alone.
Reply to
On 1/17/12 7:05 AM, in article snipped-for-privacy@4ax.com,
FWIW - I really don't like corsages, and they're not really done much here - except for the wrist things. More typically, you'll see folks arranging for some stems to be carried - not a bouquet - but something simple & elegant for the mom's, etc. Just depends. Personally, I actually think these things often become a stupid stressful morass instead of a joyous event - my points are more that the people the couple love, and the couple stay feeling that way and don't get hurt, overwhelmed over easily handled nonsense.
Personally - I'm pretty straightforward for my own functions. Doing the event things for clients is a whole different ball of wax. I've been told that the reason I'm good at it is I don't get emotionally crazy, and will rep the client while working with the vendors. But, I've seen totally bizarre things, people getting hysterical over which votives they could have, a groom almost having the caterer cancel the deal 10 days prior - over the price of tablecloth overlays (a troublemaking catering employee about to be canned sent an e-mail saying these silk things would cost $10 instead of $39, and he wanted that - I actually had worked it out with the caterer to get them an entire extra bar & bartender for $0, plus the cloths for cost at $21) which had bride in tears, me dragging groom outside to essentially smack some sense into him, and after much ado & apologies he signed the dang final contract. Uh huh. Then there was the bride who: spent 6 hours web searching & re-ordering the little ribbon to tie the stupid little bags of trinkets for the table because she thought the white on silver print she already had didn't look good enough - however as this was 2 weeks prior to the date, she still hadn't picked the music, and was the same one of "let's change the flowers" fame. To top it off, at the rehearsal - with 7 attendants - she announced the missing one was fired, it took nearly 3 hours because no one could actually pay attention, 3 of them made a burger king stop on the way (although dinner was happening after the rehearsal), and the bride then got hysterical deciding that she didn't like the music... So the music director & I swapped music around, made her happy, and got thru it. I, her dad, and the photographer, managed to convince her that they could not leave the church, go to downtown DC for photos (not at the monument for which they had a permit), have the photographer not in the limo, and then get back....AFTER...the cocktail reception. Further, she wanted to go out in Old Town Alexandria before the church for photos...that they'd just find a good place. Uh huh. Yup. She actually showed up 45 min after the ceremony should've started ....with all but 2 groomsmen also with them. Yup. Only the best man and a couple of other usher wives were on time, the groom got there about 15 min pre-ceremony. But, as there was only 1 usher at the church, no one got seated until the bridal party arrived. Whereupon I told them to get settled, fix hair, etc, while the bride started screaming we can go right now. No....your mom needs to have her hair fixed, and people actually need to be seated. Oh, why were the ushers with her? They decided it would be better to not have to drive in case of drinking. Issue - they were all staying in the hotel where the reception was to be, and since they weren't going to be drinking in the church it was doubly idiotic. Topping this - they had forgotten to pick up stuff for the church the day before - candles for the stands, some other stuff - so my poor DH helped out, ran around, and helped set-up, and when 2 usher wives showed up -they nicely helped me. Go figure. I did get a huge, huge thank you and apologies both at the reception & after. But, the kicker - the mom still owes me $350. Actually, I should've known and not taken the client - or done something - especially when my first task was to straighten out the catering manager because "he won't answer our calls." When I met with the guy, he was awesome - turned out that these people had their initial meeting, another meeting, then the typical 30-60 min menu tasting turned into nearly 5 hours, and they had also now changed the menu twice. Go figure - but we got things set, worked thru the naïve stuff, and it was indeed a gorgeous wedding. With no photos downtown or in Alexandria.
The tales of nonsense go on. Which is why when I was really doing a good amount of events I tried not to do more than 2 weddings a year, though I will do the "day of organizing" thing for a flat fee. That's a regular kind of thing here - coming in and handling the actual day, which means contacting all the vendors about 2 weeks prior, and then just handling things on the day.
Yup, you're too right. DH said he thinks the 2 older girls will likely say something spontaneous to me, as they want to arrange shopping trips.
Reply to
Ellice K.
As you said, an interesting discussion to hear other viewpoints. I'm really not all that "social" an animal, and big parties terrify me. I was *so* relieved when DD planned her own wedding reception - a lovely, simple, semi-elegant affair - and all I had to do was bake the requested challah (her new hubby did all the rest of the cooking!) and relax as a guest.
I'd been invited to be an attendant in other family weddings over the years, and was glad when my (hopefully gracious) refusal caused no ill will. Just not my thing...so I just wanted to bring out that point of view - that not everyone *wants* to be part of a big wedding! I can't even stand to watch those ridiculous TV shows or hear "bridezilla" stories such as you related. No patience for it or interest in it. (I mean, really, what's a wedding about?) (And please don't say, "oh, about $30,000!")
Reply to
Susan Hartman
I'm with you, Sue. My own wedding was in church, but no reception, and only the essential people in church. Relatives were all a long way away. No white dress or bridesmaids, no photographs etc. That was nearly 53 years ago, and I've never regretted the lack of ceremony or pictures. Or the marriage!
I organised one DD's wedding, much more traditional, but no limelight for me. The other had a friend do it, because we lived in different towns, and all her friends were there. I just made the dress and cake.
Reply to
Joyce in RSA
Spending that much on a wedding dismays me ! What a good start that amount of cash could give a couple ! Worse yet, what if it falls in the 50% failure rate - big money wasted lol
Reply to
DM & DF spent all their $$ ($$ DGM saved for DF from his Army pay during WWII) on furnishing their apartment. DM's parents had very little $$ so my parents were married in the minister's study with only the best man and matron of honor in attendance. DM still has some of those furnishings.
Reply to
Nancy Spera
On 1/17/12 9:54 PM, in article
When I was young I was very socially shy. However, I grew up in a family with lots of big dos, and with having the grandfather who was involved with show business & repping some sports people - that meant lots of parties & people from all over around. For me, I'm much better having a job to do. So, I started doing a lot of cooking and helping execute things when I was about 11. In college, I did parties for frats & often bartended. Finding that if I have something to do I'm much happier & also can be much pleasanter to others - as opposed to being frozen. Your DD knew what she was doing. Sounds delightful.
LOL - you have the best attitude. The horrid bride (lovely girl otherwise) who had the "fired" attendant, actually had the same attendant then show up at the wedding - in a dress about 2 sizes 2 small, with a laced back that looked like a fire red explosion. It was something.
Personally, I think that shows like Bridezilla showcase the worst, people who for whatever berserk reason think they're worthy of some worship, and then lend to other brides thinking these bad behaviours and tacky things are appropriate. Some of my event planning cohorts & I were laughing a couple of years ago when some wedding planner & bridezilla on the show were talking about the fee, and for that one it was like $1500 - and that poor planner did everything. So, I & this big-time caterer (who has their own planners, but I was doing this job for the bride/groom) were discussing that was no Washington DC, or any big city, kind of price. As our client was jerking around with the caterer & me - having seen said show.
Honestly, IME too often people get trapped into the stuff on websites, and marketing and so lose track of what's important. So, when I do weddings, or any big parties like Bar/Bat Mitzvahs - I try to bring some consciousness of the truly important to the clients - and not to waste their time or $$ prioritizing stupid stuff that their guests won't remember, or need. Like really, how many cheap plastic frames do you need? Or my fav - the bottle opener with the Pope's head on it (for the Italian themed wedding) - which thankfully they decided against.
Reply to
Ellice K.
I had heard about weddings that were over-planned by the mother, where the bride didn't realize what had happened almost until the wedding was over. When I got married, DH had already been married twice so wasn't looking forward to a "big" wedding. I, however, wanted a day to remember, though it didn't have to be big. My mom had been married in Reno and hadn't ever had a "real" wedding. Sooooo, we had a small wedding with a large audience! :-) My two attendants were my younger sister (16 at the time) and my best friend from 7th grade, who was 7 months pregnant at the time. My mom managed to find a pattern for a simple dress and fabric appropriate for both. My two older sisters (my mom did ask if I was sure I didn't want them also in the wedding) bought my dress (of the rack / under $200) and helped in other ways. Frankly, DH didn't KNOW two other guys he liked well enough who would have wanted to be in a wedding. :-) My mom hosted the reception in her back yard. DH and I had given her our list of people we wanted there and told her she could then invite (or NOT invite) anyone her heart desired. :-) As far as I recall, everyone was happy and I got my nice day to remember without anyone needing to spend a fortune. :-) Makes me all the happier when I read or watch about other people's nightmares!!! :-)) The wedding IS important but, after all, it is ONLY a day; it's the years that follow that are REALLY important! :-) Ahhhh. It will be 30 years in August and I can still gush and babble about my wedding. :-) Maybe I better go stitch something. :-) Good luck, Elice, with the details and the family. :-) Liz from Humbug
Reply to
Liz from Humbug

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