collar question

The right side of the fabric is the usual outside showing piece. The wrong side is the side of the fabric which is on the inside of a garment. In the case of a collar, the wrong sides would be meeting if there was no interfacing and the right side of the fabric is on the outside of the collar on both the top and under sides.... Hope that makes sense... LOL

Also, when attaching the collar,

Ok... here I grade and clip the raw edge of both layers of the collar. This gives less bulk in the seam. On some garments, I have just clipped the layer uppermost... See answer below for further explanation...

I don't tend to grade until the collar is attached to the garment, but I do clip to the seam line. I have always put the raw edges of the under collar against the raw edges of the garment right sides together. Once sewn on I then grade the seam and either hand sew or carefully machine sew the top/outer part of the collar along the seam line you have just sewn, with all seams inside the collar.

HTH

Mavis

The proper terms here are 'top collar' and 'under collar'. The top collar is the side that shows when you are wearing it, and the under collar is the part that is hidden. If you look at a man's jacket, you may well see that the under collar is made of a different fabric. With some shirt and jacket patterns you get two separate pattern pieces for the top and under collars. They get cut differently to help them lie properly.

The right side of the fabric remains the right side, and it winds up on the outside of the collar... both pieces. A proper collar pattern, imho, has two nearly identical pieces. The larger one is the top collar, and it's the piece the public will see; the smaller one is the undercollar, and it will wind up facing the body of the shirt.

The right side of the undercollar will be towards the skin. The wrong side of both the undercollar and the upper collar will be to the inside (interfacing side) of the collar.

Clipping allows a curve to lie smoothly. See #4 here:

Grading is done by holding the scissors at about 45o to a stack of fabric edges, and trimming -- the idea is to bevel the bulk of the fabric.

If you reduce the seam allowance of the outside edges (the un-notched edges) of the collar to 1/4" and the neck edge seam allowance to 3/8" before you even cut out your pattern pieces, you'll not need to grade or clip most shirting fabrics. Saves time, effort and possible oopses.

The collar completely encloses the raw edge of the neckline, and there are no raw edges to the collar when it is completed.

Bad ascii art: collar/body seam in cross section; collar is shown standing up like a turtleneck, rather than in the usual position. _____________________ topcollar |__ seam allowance of top collar body of shirt xxxxxxxxxxxxx SA of body -- SA of undercollar |_____________________ undercollar

One of the easy ways to figure stuff like this out is to deconstruct an old shirt... if one isn't handy, you can usually pick one up for a buck at the local goodwill or salvation army store. Half an hour with a seam ripper is an excellent and cheap lesson.

Kay

Kay, I don't mean to argue with someone with a LOT more experience, but this part seems backwards to me. If the top collar is the side the public sees, then the right side of the top collar would be against the skin of the person wearing the garment, at least at the seam where the collar joins the garment. Wouldn't it?

Clipping I understand. For anyone that has done wood working, this would be the same as the stress relief cuts in the surface of a piece of wood allowing it to be curved. A series of parallel cuts (in wood) usually on the inside of a piece to be curved to allow that side to compress together. In fabric, I realize its in the edge, and if its on the inside of the curve it gets notches cut to allow the gaps to narrow without having the fabric overlap, or if its on the outside of the curve, simple slits to allow the fabric to spread at the edge.

See, here is where I get confused...is the "outside edge" the top collar, which, at the attachment point SHOULD be against the wearers skin, or the bottom collar?

So, to me this sounds, and looks like I was right, and the collar's raw edges get turned to the inside, and the raw edge of the neckline of the garment gets put in between these layers.

Thought about this...but then I figured that most factory made garments are not made exactly as handmade garments. For example, the crotch piece in underwear. The seams are made as a sandwich with the body piece between the other two, and then turned so that the stitching is enclosed, but in "factory made" garments the stitching is probably exposed. In the case of a collar, I was thinking that some might be done like this in factory wear (stealing/modifying your ascii art):

Note: this is assuming that the top collar, as I said several paragraphs above, goes to the wearer's skin.

Two more things to ask now. 1) does it matter if I attach the interfacing to the top collar or the bottom collar? 2) If there is facing involved, would I attach the facing over the inner edge of the collar seam such that when I turn it into place, it also leaves no exposed raw edge? Like this:

facing ___________ | stitch through | | V | ___| > _____________________ topcollar > |__ seam allowance of top collar > body of shirt xxxxxxxxxxxxx SA of body > -- SA of undercollar > |_____________________ undercollar

Should I attach the facing at the same time as the collar to reduce the number of times I'm stitching through this, but of course the facing is NOT folded over when stitching, so when I turn the facing to the inside of the garment, it covers the all of the inside collar stitching, or at least the part that the facing covers?

The directions is for one piece collar (no seperate collar stand)

One method of sewing collars is-

Place undercollar down with outside up Next, topcollar placed down with outside down (so outsides are touching) Finale is placing the interfacing on top (interfacing can be any lighter cloth that is compatable with washing and won't show though) cut the collar corners off (interfacing only)

Pin and Sew these three together starting at the neck seamline and finishing at the neck seamline (don't sew the neck seamline) Undercollar - trim to 1/4 inch Topcollar - trim to 3/8 inch - nick where necessary about 1/8 inch Interfacing - trim to 1/2 inch - nick where necessary about 1/4 inch but, not in line with topcollar nicks Trim the collar corners Press seams open Topcollar- press along seam line that will be sewn to garment Turn collar to right side out and press

Baste or pin collar to garment - lining center back and the main points in front Sew the undercollar and interfacing to garment holding topcollar out of the way Press open the seam Tuck the topcollar seam allowance in place and sew along the edge on top collar Top stitch around outer edge of collar and hide the loose threads inside underside of collar

Top collar will be touching your neck

John

You are getting confused because of the term 'right side of the fabric' and 'wrong side of the fabric'. The right sides of the fabric on a collar are on the outside on both pieces and the wrong side of the fabric is on the inside of the collar on both pieces. This way, if you fold the collar down, the right side of the fabric is showing, or, if for some reason you wanted to pull the collar up, then, the right side of the fabric is still showing...

You're right here and so is Kay.. In sewing it serves both purposes...

<snip>

I will add here..... right side of fabric _____________________ topcollar

right side of fabric

bad ascii... phbbbbt.. I think it was very well done!

<snip>

<snip>

All patterns I have say to attach the interfacing to the under collar (the 'collar' part you usually don't see on a garment). This is so that it sits neatly.

The lining or facing should be sewn onto the garment first and treated as if the facing/lining and body of shirt is one piece. The collar is attached next, as in the top drawing shown here...

Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of ways to attach a collar and as I think about it, I have probably used more ways than I have described here.... HTH,

Mavis

and the right sides of the fabric are always on the outside of a collar and the wrong sides are on the inside of the collar... never to be seen again...

Mavis

I see what you mean.. but it's only at the seamline that it's facing the skin. The bulk of the top collar will be away from the body when the collar is in the usual wearing position.

Take a look at a collar pattern. Along one edge, the one that will be joined to the neckline, there are notches. The other three edges are un-notched, and those are the outside edges. Because there is no wearing stress on the outside edges of a collar -- it's not going to be accidentally stressed by pulling a shirt over your head, for instance, you can reduce the seam allowance on the outside edges to just about nothing. 1/4" is a convenient version of "nothing" for most shirting fabrics, but it could be even smaller. 3/8" seam allowance, however, is enough to allow for a bit of stress, both from assembling a collar and from wearing the shirt.

Correct.

Not in the good undies. Cheapies just use serging.

Nope, I've never seen a shirt done this way, except maybe as a halloween costume. You'd have to do something to prevent the top collar (in your example) from raveling, most of which would be less comfortable. Besides, when you sew collars all day long, you get really fast. <g>

The thing that really costs in factory work is number of seams/steps. Adding more seams (or edges to be finished) just isn't done for fun. Also, fabric costs are really watched closely -- layouts are so tight that the trimmings from cutting generally amount to <10% of the fabric. Before a factory would do a facing, they'd bind with bias or twill tape (like a rugby shirt collar)... much more economical.

Ok, this is just my SOP, but if I'm using fusible interfacing, I use a very light weight and fuse both upper and undercollar. If I'm using non-fusible, I just use one layer, and it doesn't matter how it goes in. Fusing both upper and undercollar cuts down on ironing needs later. Very light weight is needed if you're going to do this, because otherwise the collar gets too stiff. It's reasonably easy to judge the weight of a non-fusible interfacing you need with a particular fabric, but if you try the by-guess-and-by-gosh approach to selecting a fusible, you'll probably pick one that has too much body if you haven't actually fused a sample and examined it. Wimpy-looking fusibles make much stiffer samples than you'd expect, thanks to the glue... sort of like in woodworking... stack up a few veneers and a little glue, and you've got a nice stiff piece of plywood -- and it will be stiffer when loaded than a solid piece of the same thickness of real wood (of the same species). You'll see some people advocating fusing the top collar only, and some advocating only the undercollar. In sewing, the main thing is to do what works for you with the fabric and pattern you're using. There are some really good fusible interfacings out there that fuse well and hold well if you do the fusing correctly. If you get crummy fusible, however, there's a fair chance you'll get various texture effects after washing the garment a few times... orange peel, bubbles, unfused spots, and they look really bad if that's on the top collar. (Still looks crummy on the undercollar, but you can usually press the collar well enough for one more wearing.) I get really adamant (some would say preachy!) about buying good interfacing. Sometimes the interfacing costs more per yard than the fabric I'm using, and that's ok with me. I can't justify spending my time with a product that could screw up the garment long before the fashion fabric dies. 2) If there is

Haven't seen a real faced collar in mumble years. All the facing would do is add bulk to the neckline and give you yet another layer of fabric to try to get to lie correctly inside the shirt. I've seen a couple of home sewing patterns with both a facing and a collar, and I just chalk it up to yet another inexperienced patternmaker... Are you perhaps thinking of a standard dress shirt construction, where there's a double layer back yoke? The major difference between home sewing methods of shirt construction and factory methods lies in the construction of the front plackets (home sewing patterns typically use a separate, sewn-on band -- rtw plackets are cut-on, interfaced and turned and sewn right on the shirt body -- a much neater and easier finish.) The other big difference is the RTW patterns already have the seam allowances cut down to correct sewing allowance, rather than doing the clipping and grading and trimming home sewing patterns do. Those extra steps the home patterns want you to do would cost me about an hour to an hour and a half's labor on a shirt. I don't like to sew THAT well! <g>

Let me know if you ever want to change the front placket on a standard shirt pattern from the usual separate band to a cut-on. If the CF is marked on the body piece, the redraft is dead easy, and takes about 5 minutes. Kay

Got it. We were saying the same thing, only I wasn't visualizing what you said at first. Makes great sense to me now.

Got it...I must have been sleeping while typing that this morning...

Its a simplicity pattern I'm working from. Has a front and back facing, both interfaced. Not a dress shirt, a pull over with a collar and a V neck.

In the pattern it is marked back facing...

That sounds a lot like what this patteren called the front facing.

The other big difference is the

As a beginner...its taken me about 3 hours and I have the collar based on, and I'm trying to attach the back facing. I may try picking out the seams created where the front and back facings are supposed to be connected, and attach the back facing to the collar and body first and then do the shoulder seams between front and back facings.

Know where I can see some pics of what you mean here?

Mike,

Well done for even tackling a collar! They are fiddly. In all the patterns I've seen, and books I've read, the collar is made as a unit first.

So, iron your interfacing onto the top collar or undercollar, as per the instructions, put right (outside) sides together, and leaving the neck edge open, sew round the collar, grade and clip. Turn the collar out remembering to make sure you've pushed the corners (points) out and they look even.

Make sure you have stay stiched the neck opening of you shirt, and clipped to the stay stitching.

Now for the fiddly bit - have your swear word dictionary handy! Pin the collar and shirt together, so that the right side of the shirt neck edge is against the right side of the under collar. VERY carefully match centre points and ends of the collar / neck edge. Check your pattern to see where the collar should finish - it can vary with style. A standard work shirt will have a collar that is the whole length of the neck edge, a v-neck shirt won't.

Double check things are even. You may want to hand baste what you have just pinned, and flip the collar up to check you've got things correct.

Machine sew the neck / under collar seam - DON'T catch the top collar in this sewing!!!

Now clip and grade the seam just sown, press the seam upwards into the collar. Pull the top collar down and align with under collar. Carefully turn under the top collar seam allowance into the collar, you should be left with a smooth line of fabric against the seam you have just sown - press again. You can either hand stich this in place or I usually machine stitch it. To do this, pin or baste the top collar seam in place, and from the right side of the shirty, stitch in the ditch along the neck/collar seam line. Alternatively you can top stictch the whole collar which will hold things in place.

Good photos on collar construction can be found in Dorling Kindersley's Guide to Sewing book which is excellent. Collar construction is easier in pictures than words!

Sarah

First off...HAPPY MOTHERS DAY ALL YOU MOTHERS...

Thanks Sarah and everyone else that offered assistance on this project. (Kay, Kate, AmazeR, Mamahayes and anyone I forgot to mention). I got the collar attached. Looks OK. There are a couple of minor puckers, but they hide very nicely under the collar in the back of the neck. I think the back facing was even fussier than the collar. I started attaching the sleeves. I got one based on, and checked it for look, and it looks fine. I went to stitch it in place, and ended up catching bits of the sleeve so I had to pick out about about 1/3 of the seam to fix that. Before I went any further, Jill tried it on. :( It does fit, but just barely. I'll have to open the sides and put in a couple of gussets. Also, its a bit shorter than she would like, so I will have to make another one. When I make that one I may well leave out the back facing, and attach the collar as illustrated previously in ascii art, ie the right side of both the top and under collar turned and stitched on, ala bias tape.

Jill did think the parts I've got completed do look very nice. So, I get a little more money to go pick up some more fabric :).

I've got a couple of other things I'd like some assistance/comments on. The sleeve attachment seems as, or more fussy than the collar. The directions have me sew a line of long stitching at the seam allowance of the sleeve, and another one, 1/4 inch inside the seam allowance for "ease". I don't know what those are for or how to use them. Also, how do I deal with getting the sleeve attached smoothly?

Sec> FtForger wrote:

Ah, ok, I think I see where we parted company mentally on "shirt with facing". I was thinking of a standard "dress shirt" style, like this:

while you're working on what I call a "top". (That's probably the midwesterner in me showing through!). And you're working on something of this persuasion, perhaps? The front facing finishes the front slit. The back facing doesn't really do anything.

Mumble years ago, I was working on a similar top, though I don't think the pattern had a back facing (if it did, I'd pitched it, never being terribly interested in following instructions precisely once I had the hang of things. <g>) Anyhow, the facing edges were to be finished, and then sewn to the front of the top, right sides together, and then the slit was clipped. Turn the facing to the inside, and join the shoulder seams, catching the facing shoulder edge into the shoulder seam. Then add the collar. This worked quite nicely, and it wasn't until I'd started to sew the side seams that I realized that my facing was on the OUTSIDE OF THE DARN TOP!!! And there was no way I was going to rip that back out, particularly since I'd had a heck of a time getting the facing to lay just right and the slit to be crisp and straight. (Short interlude while I kicked the wastebasket and thought.) So I stitched the facing down around the outside edges of the facing, right to the shirt body. Slapped that collar on there, quilted the facing and the collar with diagonal straight stitching and called it done -- and got more compliments on that top than anything else I'd done up till that time. <g>

Which shows to go that "mistakes" are design opportunities. <vbg>

Anyhow, that's how I'd handle your front facing... do the slit, turn the facing to whichever side you please, catch the shoulder edge of the facing in the shoulder seam, and install the collar over the neckline, which will be single layer in back, and two layers in front. The less thread you stuff into a seam area, the less stiff things will be. And the fewer layers of fabric in a seam allowance, the less of a chance you'll make a ridge or get ripples.

With the method you propose below, I think you'll have more trouble getting a neat edge on the facing, and you'll have 7 layers of fabric at the neckline seam, instead of 6.

On Sun, 09 May 2004 19:50:51 GMT, FtForger snipped-for-privacy@nospam.com wrote:

Sounds familiar! I doubt there's any of us who hasn't done it at least once.

Cut a band to put around the bottom, in place of a hem? Use a similar band on the sleeves?

8-) (Buynicefabric, buynicefabric, buynicefabric... my chant for newbies to sewing <g>)

Sounds like you're dealing with a set-in sleeve. What pattern are you using? The extra lines of stitching are because the seamline of the sleeve cap is longer than the seam of the armscye, between the front and back notches. You need to make the seamline of the sleeve cap shorter, and you do this by "easing", which means sorta gathering/squishing up the fabric, but not enough to make puckers. This gives the sleeve cap its roundness, so it'll go over the point of the shoulder and let you move your arm.

If the sleeve and armscye was properly drafted, it'll go together nicely unless you're using impossible to ease fabric.

The patterns always tell you to run two lines of stitching and then pull the bobbin threads to slightly gather the fabric to the right length and distribute the ease. This, imho, is a giant PITA, and a method of last resort for me. Instead, if I'm setting sleeves with just a sewing machine, I do what's called "ease plus stitching" (Nancy Zieman's term ("Sewing with Nancy")) or "crimping" (rtw industry term). To do this, set your machine for a longish straight stitch, maybe about 4 mm. Start at one set of notches, and drop your needle into the fabric, just shy of the actual seamline (so the stitching you're doing will be just barely in the seam allowance by 0.5 mm or so). Lower the presser foot and park your left thumb or forefinger hard right behind the presser foot and start sewing, guiding the fabric with your right hand, and letting the fabric pile up against your thumb. This will make little pleat-y looking things in the sleeve cap at the seamline. Continue to sew all the way around the sleeve cap to the other set of notches. Stop and raise the foot and needle, and trim the thread. Now sew the underarm seam of the sleeve (I assume the bodice side seam is sewn). Pin the sleeve to the armhole, matching the underarm seams, the notches, and the dot at the top of the sleeve. Toss in a couple of extra pins for luck. Now turn the sleeve so the sleeve side (the part you crimped) is facing the feed dogs, and the body of the bodice is uppermost. This may feel bass-ackward, but try it...the feed dogs will take just a smidge extra material up as you sew, and it should all fit together fine. Use kinda longish stitches...3.5 mm or so, because you may wind up catching a little extra fabric in the seam and you want to be able to rip. You can reduce the extra fabric chances by reducing the seam allowance of the sleeve cap and armscye, but let's not do that for first time out.

Problems you may run into:

1) the sleeve seamline may be much too long to smush that extra fabric into the armscye. This is generally a pattern-drafting fault, but occasionally, you run into fabrics that can't be eased that you want to use with a set-in sleeve, so you go to plan B and do a pleated sleeve cap or something similar. 2) strange little sideways puckers caught in the seamline, usually about halfway between the notches and the top of the sleevecap. Rip for an inch or so, and restitch. 3) sleeves that have diagonal wrinkles in the sleevecap when you look at them on the wearer from the side. And it will happen on almost all sleeved garments on that wearer. That's a fitting problem, usually the shoulder is slightly rotated forward from "normal", and that forces the sleeve offgrain. Cure is to rotate the sleeve in the armscye till the grain of the sleeve is perpendicular to the floor, and then sew it in. Your remarks about tight across the back make me suspicious that this might be going on, as tight across the back + right diameter at the upper chest usually means the modern slumpy computer user posture, and rotated shoulder tends to go with it.

One method is to build in a yoke... just cut across the back of the pattern, separate the two pieces, add seam allowance, and extra fabric for ease pleat(s). Another, as you suggest, is to use a back pattern piece a size or two larger.

More here:

I will warn you that once you get the sleeves in, it's going to feel even tighter across the upper chest and back than when it's "sleeveless".

Since you're also having to insert pieces on the sides, and I seem to recall that you did that on the last project, too, I wonder if the pattern size you're choosing is correct.

Suggestion of things to consider if you go for the "just use a larger back" method: the back neckline and the back armscye will be a smidge longer, and will need similar adjustments for sleeve and neckline finish (collar, facing, whatever). You'll be slightly throwing off the standard proportions of back to front armscye, also -- the seamline of the back armscye should be 1/2" longer than the front half seamline, which can make some interesting getting-everything-matched-up problems. If, however, you increase the body width in back by slashing through the shoulder, you'll obviate the neckline and sleeve adjustment problems.

Another suggestion for this shirt... since it's already tight across the back, and you're going to be adding gussets, why not make this one sleeveless? Draw in the armscye she wants with chalk, and bind it with bias, and be done with it.

Third suggestion: consider finding and perfecting a basic pattern for her that fits really well... has a sleeve she likes, a silhouette she likes, and a high neckline suitable for collars. Perfect that pattern, and then do theme and variations. It's amazing the number of garments that you can get out of a basic pattern that won't look much alike, and you save tons of time by not having to re-invent the fitting each time.

You can add yokes, change the neckline, change the sleeves, change ease, change shaping, make different collars, cuffs, pockets... all sorts of good things from one basic pattern.

All in all, you're doing amazingly well for a beginner... collars and set in sleeves are two of the toughest things outside of fitting, and it sounds like you're managing nicely!

Kay