Needle specifications

It appears that all size (X) needles are not the same.
We are running some pretty heavy Sunbrella material in multiple layers
and have been using a size 18 needle with V92 thread on an industrial
machine. Getting low on needles (the initial supply came with the
machine) we bought some new size 18 ones. They don't fit. Some are too
short and the shanks on others are too big and they won't fit in the
needle holder.
The original needles (Innova) had all this on the packet:
16X257; 287WH; 1738; 1738A; 16X95; 16X231; DBx1; DBx257 110|18
Another packet (Schmetz) says:
Canu: 37:20 17; NM: 110 SIZE: 18 135x17 SERV 7; DPx17 SERV 7
Yet another packet (unknown) says:
DPx5; 135X5; 134R SY1955 SY6790 110/18
And finally (Organ):
DB X 1 16X231 16X257 1738 100/16 SES/BP
The Organ size 16 fit the machine but are too small for the job. None of
the others fit the machine because the shanks are too large.
What do all these numbers mean? What do I really need to know to get the
right needles for this machine? I suspect DBx1 and size are all I need,
though the instructions for the machine also show setup steps for a DAx1
needle.
Reply to
Gogarty
Did you make sure you bought the right type of industrial needles for the machine, or did you just pop out and get some standard domestic machine needles? You need to check in the machine manual for the type as well as the size.
Reply to
Kate XXXXXX
In article , snipped-for-privacy@diceyhome.free-online.co.uk says...
Oh no, they are all industrial needles. No flat on the shank. And I know what works for this machine: DBx1. My question was what are all those numbers? What characteristic of the deedle do they define compared to other needles? What is equivalent to what?
Reply to
Gogarty
Yup, the issue you're running into is called "needle system". Your machine requires certain a needle of a particular system, and will handle a particular range of needle sizes.
Up to the 110/18, these are all "needle system" descriptions for the same needle. For historical reasons, different manufacturers used different descriptors. The needle system specifies shank diameter, position of the eye in relationship to the point, etc. There can be slight differences between needles made for each system, but this packet has needles that should work in machines specifying any one of these needle systems.
FWIW, this is a needle often found in sergers, or in commercial lockstitch machines.
The last bit, the 110/18 tells you the needle size -- 110 is the metric sizing, 18 is the Singer sizing system. (There are other sizing systems, but these are the two you run into most)
Yup, needle system by yet another spec (Canu), then NM: (metric size) followed by Singer's size, followed by more needle systems. Isn't this fun?
More needle system synonyms followed by the needle size in metric and Singer.
Bingo! We have a needle system match to the originals, but the size is a needle size smaller... 100 in metric, 16 in Singer. SES/BP specifies the point style, which is a light ball point, suitable for knits.
Schmetz and Organ seem to be the big players in needles that most of us are likely to get our hands on. Singer also sells needles, but I'm not sure who makes them. Groz-Bekert and Klasse are other brands I've seen once in awhile.
Schmetz has a big needle catalog online, most of which is really for industrial needles:
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At any rate, a good machine dealer can give you the right needles if you give them any of the systems, or (better yet) the specs from the machine's manual, and tell them the size and point you need, or at least the material you're going to be sewing...
Kay
Reply to
Kay Lancaster
In article , snipped-for-privacy@hub.fern.com says...
Many thanks. Sheesh! Whatever happened to standardization? You would not believe the trouble I am having in finding the right needles here in New York City. Mail order seems the way to go now that I know exactly what to specify.
What's the diference between a DBx1 and a DAx1? From the marks on the needle bar I would say that the DAx1 is slightly shorter than the DBx1. What would that do for you?
Reply to
Gogarty
Domestic machines have been standard for years. The difference is industrial machines are for specific uses and there are needs for different needle lengths, blade types, points, etc.
Reply to
Ron Anderson
for domestic machines ( i am guessing the same for industrials) the needle length would affect the needle to hook timing
that is the hook would arrive too early or too late to hook the thread loop at the needle tip resulting in anything from missed or skipped stitches to breaking the needle thread, hook jamming or bend/break needles etc.
also depending on the clearances of the moving hook/rotary parts you may get needle to hook contact which may break or bend the needle
HTH robb
Reply to
robb
hi Ron, Please exuse the interruption, is there any machine that is considered a general purpose industrial ? i suppose that means an industrial that *could* be used for wide variety of medium to heavy weight materials
also will a *commercial grade* (eg. CG500) machine handle occasional use on upholstery type work ? i am asking for myself as i have found out the hard way (as you have stated before) that pushing #69 nylon through a domestic machine is folly.
i tried to repair a seam on a jogging stroller insert with a touch and sew using #69 nylon and it gave the machine all sorts of fits... i had to wind the bobbin by hand (forget the auto winder) and #69 thread with a 100/18 needle made the bobbin case rattle like a tin can half filled with rocks
not to mention the fact that it was near impossible to get any type of lockstitching.... the only way i could finish was to set tensioner to 0 and i mostly turned the hand crank manually.
i noticed some other seams could use some reinforcement and i have a sofa i want to recover the cushions so that the purpose of my question.
thanks for your time and any advice you can give. robb
Reply to
robb
That type work will want a walking foot machine for upholstery etc. Not good though for light work dresses, shirts etc. I guess the answer is no there is no general purpose industrial machine, they are rather specific in what they will and won't do. The Singer commercial grade is a Low end home sewing machine put in a heavy metal body just to make you think it is special. Kind of like lipstick on a gorilla .
Reply to
Ron Anderson
You kind of have that correct. The machine will not sew because the hook and needle relationship is affected, however your statement may lead one to believe that can adjust their way out of this and that is not so.,
Reply to
Ron Anderson
i was trying to be careful not to imply any cure but only to state what kind of symptoms one might expect from putting the incorrect length needle in a properly adjusted machine.
i must admit that my first thought upon reading your comment was "why can't you adjust your way out ?" then after a bit of thought i came to realize that too many other parameters are involved and that the nedle bar timing marks are the point of reference for syncronizing those other parameters and the needle length must conform to those settings.
thanks for the brain bender, robb
Reply to
robb
well i suspected as much, do you think a singer 99-## or 66 class machine would be up to task of occasional upholstery work that is pushing #69 nylon through some medium weight material.
after looking at those CG machines a little more closely they remind me alot of the early stylist line on steroids so i guess that fits with your description of low end machine wrapped in industrial style paint and metal
thanks again for heaads up robb
Reply to
robb
In article , snipped-for-privacy@where.on.net says...
You betcha! Once you start straying off the reservation of closely set factory adjustments all sorts of things start going wrong. And I have to say the machine manufacturer does not go out of his way to make it easier for the user. As simple a thing as removing and reinserting the screws that hold the feed dog in place. One would expect one could just drop them in the screw holes and tighten. But nooooo! There is no chamfer on either the screw or the hole and if you don't get it straight they fall out and disappear under whatever is furthest away to disappear under.
Anyway, the machine instructions has a section on needle-to-hook timing that tells how to set the machine up for either DBx1 or DAx1 needles. As far as I can see, when set up for the DAx1 needle, the needle bar is about 1/16" higher than for the DBx1 needle. So the DAx1 needle wold be that much longer than the DBx1.
This a has been (still is) quite an apprenticeship.
Reply to
Gogarty
The DBX1 is the longer, and most common, needle at 33.9 mm from butt to top of the eye, the DAx1 is 29.6 mm. The DAX1 would be used if one were setting up the machine exclusively for light weight materials. You would do best to stick with the DBX1 needle as you are pushing the limits of the machine as it is.
Reply to
Ron Anderson
In article , snipped-for-privacy@a1sewingmachine.com says...
Thank you. That sets that to rest. Machine is running fine now.
Reply to
Gogarty
Dax and Dbx refers to type of material machine is set up to sew. Dax is for light material Dbx for heavy. The machine needs adjusting to compensate for longer or shorter needles and the shank or shaft has to fit on the up down part of the needle mechanism. To make it easier fit the same size as the broken needle. If you want to fit the longer size you need to make certain adjustments for needle length and the timing, especially if you see the needles breaking or it does not sew at all.
Reply to
mak
You may find it useful to set up the machine to suit needle. You are lucky to have the set up procedures. Follow them up exactly for needle height and timing and you should be fine.
Reply to
mak

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