Article "Turning Tools:Spotting Desing Flaws

Don't expect this to go over well with the "I use my (big-name grind or alloy here) gouge for everything" set. Some folks will go to any length to defend an expensive purchase.

Hi Charlie, Thanks for the tip. Haven't read Darlow's article so naturally, I'll ask a question and make a comment. :)

Does he mention where to buy a deep 'V' or 'U' fluted drop forged carbon steel 'bowl' gouge?

Some of us find alloy steel gouges with deep 'V' or 'U' flutes, that sport drawn back edges with high sounding names to be quite helpful.

That brayed, I sure like and use my old Sorby Sheffeld steel and my old original Buck Brothers' carbon steel tools.

Turn to Safety, Arch Fortiter

snipped-for-privacy@webtv.net (Arch) wrote in news:13082-43131934-492@storefull-

3176.bay.webtv.net:

Arch, I'm not charlieb, but I read the article twice. Darlow doesn't say 'don't use these', but 'be aware of the compromises made', and 'use them within their limits'. He also indicates several user mods that might help.

Sit tight & dry, there in Florida, sir.

Patriarch, beginning curl producer...

charlie b responded When I was making jewelry - on a budget - I knew folks who bought every WhipZam New & Improved Custom Deluxe machine, tool and device that came along and seemed to assume that the mere possession of them would automatically make them a better jeweler. All too often the thing didn't a) live up to the hype in the ads and b) the owner usually didn't follow the limited "instructions" that came with it, if it was read at all.

Where to buy? No. In fact, he doesn't mention ANY brand names/ manufacturers. But he did describe why a deep "U" cross section is safer to use than round stock with a semi-circle ground into it. The deep "U" is less apt to catch/ dig in than the ground semi-circle grind because of the 90 degree corners at the top of the "U".. It's more apt to scrape than dig in

+-+ + | | | \

I'm familiear with flat backed cutting tools with a straight cutting edge - plane irons and bench chisels. With them, there's a trade of between toughness and hardness.- if it's tough you need to touch up the edge more often. If it's hard, when the edge chips rather than dulls and it takes a lot longer to restore the edge. Having a stone on the bench keeps the work flowing smoother than having to stop and grind/ Scary Sharp or go through 3 or four grits of stones.

I'll admit that I'm guilty of continuing to use a cutting tool after the edge is dulled. And I have the luxury of having a set of old Bucks, the blue handled Marples, Two Cherries and a set of Crown butt chisels. And I've got spare irons for several of my hand planes. To be even guiltier, I've got a Tormek, diamond plates AND a set of Japanese waterstones so I have no excuse. (drive by gloat is coincidental)

With turning tools however, the price tags preclude having four of each one and some of the profiles are not easily "touched up" at the bench and often require special jigs to sharpen them. So with the limited turning tools I've got (so far), I wait 'til I have several that really, really, really need sharpening (ie - won't work worth a damn) before I stop and go set up for sharpening.

In the long run, it's eaier and quicker to maintain an edge than to restore one.

Patriarch wrote:

Thanks for adding that point. The problem for me, as a newbie to woodturning, is being nearly clueless as to what the limitiations are, let alone how to stay within them. The article fills in some of the major gaps in my knowledge and understanding of turning tools mechanics/physics.

Amen to that.

charlie b

The Bench article is also Recommended!

It's a wonder you've still got enough cash to buy the gas for the drive by! :o)

Or, we indulge ourselves in a hobby without particular attention to cost/benefit ratio. I own several one trick ponies because there are two standard gift days and a Hallmark holiday per year, and I have three children and a wife. Makes a dozen gifts per year, because who really answers the "what do you want for _" question with "underwear?" Lately I've escalated my requests, so they have to combine.

Read the article, and it's a good one, save he seems concerned only with the entry into the cut in his analysis of rolling moment. Once the bevel is in contact, it becomes part of the tool's stability, which is where "fingernail" grinds fall further behind, because the bevel angle is variable, and changing the depth of cut only can cause instability due to angle of attack and lack of support.

Sorry to interrupt with a beside question: i there a link to the webside of woodworking? I can't find it myself (shame, shame;-)

Lobby Dosser wrote in news:RLLQe.15134 $Uz2.9025@trnddc02:

Actually, the referenced article is in 'Woodwork'.

The Roubo bench article is in 'Woodworking', the newstand only pub from the editors of PopWood. And it is an excellent article. Has me thinking about a new bench, if I can work out the shop space issues...

Patriarch

Was just going to google for myself and turned up everything but. Got the address out of the magazine - surprise, surpise.

Dang, you're right! Got both magazines on the night stand.

The Holdfast article makes you want to build the bench And take up smithing (Wodworking). Don't think I can justify $50 a pop. Let's see, anvil at $$$, forge $$$, ...

Thank you! x2 ;-)

SNIP ...........

==========================

Harbor Freight has affordable anvils. For most tool making, a small one is adequate. For a forge, cut a propane tank in half and use an old vacuum cleaner exhaust as an air source. Then a bag or 2 of charcoal and youre in the "home made" tool business. YMMV

Ken Moon Webberville, TX.

Martin Martin Eastburn @ home at Lions' Lair with our computer lionslair at consolidated dot net NRA LOH, NRA Life NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder

Bezemsteel wrote:

here are some remarks from some very knowlegable members of a turning club I belong to - I've removed their names and emails of course for privacy. in short, they don't think much of the ariticle - personally, I haven't seen it. maybe this will offer some counterpoint to the original post

Bill N

Dx,

When I saw this e-mail announcement and read it, my reaction was this does mean anything to me and I'm not sure the guy knows what he is talking about.

Bx ----- Original Message ----- From: Dx To: turnings Sent: Tuesday, August 30, 2005 5:51 PM Subject: RE: [turnings] Fw: Article "Turning Tools:Spotting Desing Flaws

Bx, I read this article from Darlow. Believe me, it will make your eyes glaze over. He is basically a pompous gasbag with delusions of expertise. We had a written exchange in the 80's in the AAW magazine as he roundly criticised a tool he had never seen before and claimed it didn't work. That was the Stabilax which I invented and was tested and enthusiastically endorsed by all the leading wood magazines. Thousands of that tool were sold and used all over the world. It also apparently led to the development of other tools such as the round skew chisel. He bad-mouthed aluminum handles with shot in them in the current article. (Such as in Jerry's tools) I would say Jerry is a more credible expert than Darlow. Dx

Opinions, as my Drill Instructor said.

I'm disappointed that statics, rather than dynamics of cutting were the focus, and, of course there are glaring flaws in his presentation. He repeats the conventional wisdom of the "weak tang" as if it made a difference with close toolrests, for instance.

To the rest of us he's at least as qualified as your knowledgeable members, having put forth his analysis for us to see, rather than confining himself to ad hominem remarks.

snip

Mike Darlow's website was included in the article - and of course I forgot to include it in my original post. Here it is for those who wish to check out his qualifications.

As is so often the case there are opposing opinions of someone else's analysis and conclusions. I was trained in Chem E so the statics based analysis makes sense to me in terms of the mechanics. I'm afraid that a dynamics analysis would be a bit complicated to put in a four or five page article. I suspect that many turners learn to compensate for a tools shortcomings, find a few they like and stick with them, often defending their choices to the death.

There are two of his articles on his site that I found interesting - both rang some bells.

charlie b

I got a set of eight HSS tools from HF when I first got started (since the set of 3 miniature tools were obviously not going to suffice). I use perhaps 4 of them regularly. I get moderate use of my Sorby oval skew, Sorby multi-purpose hollowing scraper thingy and Sorby bowl sander thingamabob.*

But ya wanna know what gets the most use?

A 1/2 inch scraper from the HF and two other scrapers I made from tool steel discarded by my employer.

I'm still very much into 'newbie learning mode', but I've now made a few dozen objects and can see my tool use developing a pattern.

Bill

Anybody know where to get 2" wave-edge H&L sanding disks for less than Woodcraft extorts, er, um 'charges'? Local to Detroit would be best but mail order / web works, too. I'd buy in units of 100 or more if I could get the price down to ~25 cents each.