CA Glue

Bill:

I just posted this to the thread about using coffee as a component of filler. If you are grinding up the CA into microfine particles and inhaling them (yes, even through a dust mask) then I cannot imagine the end result being any different.

Again, it begs the question, why expose yourself needlessly? You can be doing damage now that won't show up for years... cynanide compounds are well known for their residual effects.

Just a quick warning, take it for what it is worth. Note that the ingredients of CA contain (prominently!) cyanoacrylate.

We have a bona fide research chemist in our group, and he has warned us

about using key filings or any other kind of non ferrous metals with CA. According to him, the smoke that come off the metal in reaction to

being mixed/exposed to the glue is actually the molecules of cyanide being released, and therefore you have a mild form of cyanide gas!

Just a heads up... I know there are those here that will intentionally huff the smoke/fumes to be contrary and will come back here to announce

they are not dead.

But remember you basic chemistry classes... it makes sense! Even if it

doesn't, WTF is that smoke anyway? Why take a chance?

Just last year I went to a demo by a well known turner that claims that

one of the folks in his club can no longer turn as he was a fan of using CA as finish (flood the surface, sand off and polish). After about a month in the hospital they finally found out two things:

- Permanent nerve damage (tremors)

- Condition was consistent with cyanide poisoning

The conclusion was that as an avid turner, he finally hit his toxicity point after about three years of that particular finish. He can no longer turn.

Robert

Hi Bill

I have a link to CA glue health info here if you like to know, people that have been exposed for 18 years with no problems according government test etc.

Biggest hazard seems to be combustion hazard and gluing your fingers eyes etc. and respiratory irritation, for all I can find.

Using a fan and ventilation will help with that, other than that I think it's a "The Sky is falling" kind of thing imo.

Bill Gooch wrote:

Leo:

As with all things we do in the shop, care must be taken, and all things we read must be investigated before believing. However, that being said, please note that the research link you have is from one of the largest manufacturers of CA glue (and its derivatives) in the US today.

To me, that is kind of like quoting the the tobacco companies' research that assures us there is no link to smoking and health issues. After all, they even said it to a Congressional investigative commitee that was looking specifically into health problem allegations.

This is one of many I found from an independent. There was a lot out there, and I realize this is something like 5 years old... but if carefully read it does voice its own concerns. Nothing long term, but I would caution that it is an older warning, too.

It has not been tested for actual inhalation of the solid particulates, as it simply was not designed for the usage phrased in the question.

And one more time, why take ANY chance, for ANY reason for a hobby?

Robert

And you believe that this is significant because?

What has he researched? Where did he get his doctorate?

What smoke? I don't recall ever seeing cyanoacrylate adhesives smoke when combined with _anything_ except heat.

They do make fumes when set on aluminum foil and heated--this is a technique that police use regularly in obtaining fingerprints from various articles. The standard recommendation is that a cup of coffee or hot water be used to provide the heat rather than a hot plate, because cyanide can develop above

Any more than the cops you use this technique are dead.

What makes sense? Please describe the reaction that you believe takes place.

As for "WTF is that smoke", well, when it hits fingerprints it turns into cured superglue so one may assume that it's vaporized superglue, unless there is something magic about fingerprints that causes cyanide to magically metamorphose into superglue, but if that is the case then I would have expected someone to notice.

If you believe that it is cyanide vapors then what atom or molecule do you believe is attached to the CN radical? And how does it become separated from the remainder of the cyanoacrylate molecule? Where does it come from? And why does the molecule break there instead of at the bond to the COOCH3 group?

What else was it "consistent with"? "Consistent with cyanide poisoning" is not the same thing as "caused by cyanide poisoning".

Sorry, but that doesn't sound like any description of cyanide poisoning that I can find. It does sound like sensitization to an allergen--what kind of wood was he turning? Some of them can be quite dangerous that way, far more so than cyanoacrylate adhesives.

Cyanoacrylates are used in surgery--if they caused any significant problems I believe that they would have been noticed by the medical community.

Sounds to me like your chemist is just trying to scare people with a half-baked idea.

It is important to take things in context. I do not care if you are careful or not. It is sad you wish to make this a more personal issue, as I do not. A strong caution was what I was elucidating, not mother hen advice. I have been in construction for over 30 years, and retain

And you are missing an important point, so her it is, one more time. Grinding up and inhaling the dust into your lungs, even the smallest particulates, is much different than using it as an adhesive, in which case you are probably only going to inhale only the solvents.

When used in medical applications, the CA used there is a different ratio composition, and it cures differently. However, when leaving the cured monomers in place, it gives off a small amount of toxic that are deemed to be of concern to the medical community:

My conclusion to this thread (for me) is a quote from their conclusion:

"Although there is not enough evidence that to prove that CA is carinogenic to humans, it can be toxic to the neurological system and the respiritory system, as well as causing dermititis and urticaria. These efects are harmful enough for dental staff and other workers to ensure that they take steps to avoid direct contact with CA and reduce environmental exposure."

Good enough for me. This was found with 5 minutes of Google search. There is plenty more info out there if you are actually interested in the facts.

I must say though, I did not find any specific research that delved into the reaction of the human body to inhaling the polymerized monomer itself to provide a direct pathway into the bloodstream....

Robert

Dominance exercises again for Mr. J, it would appear. It's something they teach you in cop school - if you're asking the questions, you're in charge. If you're answering them, you're not. That's why the officer never answers the "why did you pull me over" question, merely demands your license and registration, and asks "do you know..." fill in the ellipses.

Owen answered his own question, rather than the one that was asked -safety in the manufacture of the monomer doesn't really carry over to safety in breathing the gases evolved during polymerization. However, if the mystery writers are correct, HCN, the gas mentioned by name has a distinctive odor missing from all my experiences with CA. Those include, for the benefit of the J, the _many_ times puffs of vapor have arisen from punky spots, especially, or when accelerant has been used. I rather expect heat of polymerization would answer for that. No bitter almond, though. Even given the low LD50, I think you can smell it well before it kills you.

Which leads to another answer, I believe. Charcoal is not effective against HCN, as near as I can find, so while your filters may protect you from the other things involved, it won't help you there.

To quote Dean Edell, "the plural of anecdote is not data." First frightening story I heard about CA users involved cardiac arrhythmias, something for which I could never find documentation, and is no longer repeated. I think the shooter is repeating anecdote, rather than data, but he does tag it as personal opinion, so I guess we can take it or leave it.

If I remember correctly, only about 20% can actually sense the bitter almond smell from HCN.

As for the rest of the "discussion" - I'd want to see if anyone has actually carried out pyrolysis studies on cyanoacrylate adhesives before coming to any conclusions on this.

Inhaling ANY kind of dust for prolonged periods of time (I think 30 years was given in one of the articles in this thread) is bad for you.

Especially if you also smoke...

I can smell it from cherry sapwood that's been cooking in the sun, so I guess I'm in the 20%.

(1) Quote the post to which you are responding. If you give me some line of crap that shows that you have no clue how USENET works, will be the result.

(2) You started out raving about cyanide. Now you're on about dermatitis and respiratory and eye irritation. If that worries you then for God's sake never eat wasabi, Chinese mustard, or anything with hot peppers. Or slice onions for that matter.

As for _cured_ CA, the paper you link indicates that that is an allergic reaction. You might not bed aware of this, but take any arbitrary substance and it is almost certain that someone, somewhere is allergic to it. There are people who will die from eating one peanut, and I was at a party a while back where one of the guests had to be rushed to the hospital because he inadvertently got too close to a strawberry (didn't even touch it).

Beyond that the paper talks about _uncured_ CA. Glue your eyes shut with it and you're not going to give a damn about a little bit of dermatitis.

You need to get some perspective.

Google "wood dust toxicity" and you'll f> It is important to take things in context. I do not care if you are

Who is making anything a "personal issue"?

Raving about nonexistent cyanide is not "a strong caution".

Err away. But if you are going to make assertions, at least see that they bear some slight relation to truth.

And you are missing an even more important point. Many species of wood are toxic to some extent. Some produce severe allergic reactions in a large percentage of those exposed. Anyone who finishes turnings is going to be exposed to wood dust as well as CA dust and there is nothing to suggest that the CA dust is going to do them more harm than the wood dust.

Cured acrylic is cured acrylic.

"Cured monomers"? Once it's cured there are no monomers. The curing process is called "polymerization" for a reason.

It includes 32 references. So what? Most of them have nothing to do with toxicity.

In other words "we don't have even the slightest reason to think that there is a problem, but we're going to scare people anyway"

If you read the entire paper instead of just the conclusion you would be aware that those effects are for uncured CA.

You can glue your eyelids to your eyeballs with CA as well. And that is far worse than "dermatitis and urticaria". So what?

"polymerized monomer"? Why don't you just say "polymer" like the rest of the world?

Do you mean that Chicken Little was RIGHT??? damn...

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

Apparently so:

that's pretty cool.. thanks!

mac

Please remove splinters before emailing

It's called relative risk. It all depends on your life and your lifestyle. Dan