Gloat - I think??

I took a couple of crabs down recently. It turns well, but warps like mad. Get the anchorseal on it quickly... it will start checking within a few hours.

I had one bowl blank separate on me along a growth ring while shaping the outside... The damndest thing.

Save chips, broken bowls, etc, for smoking meat on the BBQ with. I did pork ribs that way two weeks ago and have a couple of big racks ready to go on again this afternoon... we're having friends over.

Smoking with apple is wonderful. The smell of it in your shop as you turn it is great, too.

Sadly, I will have some crab to turn this year as well. The 70+ year old sweet crab out front was girdled by some of our little rodent friends this winter. Didn't notice it until the snow melted down a couple of days ago. I will probably make most into spoons/spatula(e)s and such, though. Tends to look more like cherry with muddy figure to me. Grows slowly, and therefore hard, though.

I was smoking this morning at the lathe. A bad cigar as a counter to turning elm. Man, that stuff really can smell up the place. Won't be using any of those shavings near the BBQ or the smoker, though.

S'funny, but I don't really mind the smell of elm. I like strong cheeses too.

But no elm here for another couple of months. It's illegal to cut them between April 15 and July 31 as we try to stop Dutch Elm Disease from getting this far north. The smell attracts the beetles that carry the fungus.

djb

It is an persistent smell as well. Even when off duty I answer the page in my area, and just after writing the last, I was outside chainsawing a couple of new elm blanks when I got a call for a CVA.

Though all were happy to see me and the ambulance, I have to admit I did notice a few noses crinkling as I was seeing to the patient. I explained that I had been working elm, but I have a feeling they probably thought I had tripped and fallen into the cat box on the way out the door.

To me, Elm isn't that bad...but wet red oak? Its simply not allowed in my shop anymore. PHEW~~~!!

Peter Teubel Milford, MA

Hmmmm! Worse I have encountered is a "Tree of Heaven" of the Quassia Family, Simarubaceae, Atlanthus altissima [Mill.] Swingle [H]. This just off the top of my head of course!! (;p.

Regards. Lewis Meanness don't happen overnight

"Cat urine" is one way folks up here describe the odor of "piss elm," but if you have a tree which was standing dead, or has a soft heart from decay, something common among apples, you might have just plain foul water in abundance. Had some aspen going bad in the heart a few back which smelled remarkably like my septic was backing up, a smell with which I am too familiar come spring breakup.

Cherry with a bit of time in the sun smells like the cyanide it's producing.

All I've turned smelled like those little Asian ladybugs that congregate by the thousands come fall.

"JoanD'arcRoast" Does all Boxelder [Acer negundo] smell bad, or was it the microbes

My wife can't even standto walk near it because of the smell. Dave in Fairfax

All that I've cut smells about the same whether it has the "flame" (which is more of a mineral stain which may be indirectly caused by a fungal infection or other event/injury to the tree but is not the same as spalting) or has Blue Stain (which is directly caused by fungal activity and, again, isn't the same as spalting) or not. I never noticed a particularly bad or strong scent though. All I've cut down though were live trees. Maybe the dead and partially decaying ones smell differently?

- Andrew

Which minerals?

It depends and it's not just one specific mineral that causes this reaction in this particular tree species. In a general sense, it's some ratio of calcium and/or iron oxides present in the soil that causes this reaction of the Box Elder tree to those chemicals. The exact ratio of which specific oxide mineral isn't known. If it were, and if you could find the specific trigger to make the tree pick up higher concentrations AND have the tree react appropriately to those specific concentrations of minerals, you'd be able to produce the Flame Box Elder on demand. It wouldn't be quite so rare and expensive of wood at that point either.

Of course, the same minerals react differently between different tree species. If you had the exact same minerals that will give you the bright red "flame" in Box Elder present in Ash, for example, you'll not get the same coloration. For tannin rich woods, you'll most likely get more bluish, green or muddy brick red/brown colors as those iron rich oxide minerals are going to react to the tannin differently. But then, you're not going to get the same reactions of the tree to the minerals, if present in the right concentrations, across different tree species either. It's not like you could just inject these minerals (even if you knew exactly what combination does it) into the tree vascular system and see the bright red flame appear later. It's the trees' REACTION to those specific mineral concentrations that is important as well. It's not just one, simple, and highly predictable formula of having the right tree specie and right minerals present in the soil.

This is all assuming that the tree, Box Elder in this case, is going to react in a certain way in order to get this whole process started. And THAT is dependent on some event (usually an injury of some kind like fungal attack, bird peck, bark damage, etc.) happening in just the right way to get the tree to react in the first place.

Box Elders' "Flame" falls under the term "Mineral Streak" and, more generally, "Mineral Stain". It isn't the same exact mechanism as a pine mineral stain, for example, but it's close. Mineral Stains just refer to minerals within the tree itself (usually just naturally present in that species at that particular location .... not as a result of anything special happening to the tree other than location) reacting to some foreign substance. This is usually easily thought of as an iron nail. You'll get local reaction and a wood coloration but not normally a streaking throughout the tree vascular system. It's the calcium oxide minerals that are generally considered the culprits of Mineral Stains that will give you those muted, ugly bluish/grey/brown colors but it's certainly not the only type of mineral that will do it.

I hope this helped,

- Andrew

Maybe it was the hollow (decayed) that caused the smell? Hollow, soaked, and nasty looking catalpa trees don't smell bad, generally, but just wet red oak smells bad to me.

"any tree that goes down in a storm should be regarded as suspect as to it's overall health"

Well, maybe for those little showers ya'll call Hurricanes (like it was some big deal that you have to name them!), that might be true. But for our tornadoes here in the midwest, perfectly good trees of any size, shape, color, and political orientation get ripped up by their roots and transported across counties. By the way, we name our storms too. We just recycle their names though .... they end up being called something like "OH SH#T!"

In all seriousness, though, that's how I got those Box Elders I was talking about. The tornadoes that ran through here about a year ago. I finally counted 10 of them down with 4 of them with some nice flame.

Yep. That's what I've seen too. Not too interesting if not for the colors. I've also noticed, after recently finding some branches that I had stacked several months ago that are mildly dry, that it's really really bad about "chunking" (worse than just the average tearout) when trying to hollow endgrain.

Looks kind of like the quintesential witches' mole with hairs coming out of it? I wonder what those look like inside. I've always just burned those that I've found on other trees. Maybe I should go find one and see what it's like inside.

I have to do that when turning blackjack oak. Even perfectly good trees freshly cut just smell bad. Wonderful wood to look at but smells like a horse coral.

- Andrew

Thanks Andrew. A good discussion re mineral stain that can be archived for easy reference. It shows that there can be advantages to threads going OT. Ricc's original question led to George's query and your answer that many of us didn't know. Arch

Fortiter,

Reminds me of the time back in the mid 80s. I was hauling some wheat for my unlce and the truck was loaded with about 300 bushels. I sa the storm front approach and was not gonna make it to the elevator in time so headed back. Well a mere 75 mph wind is enough to rock that truck back and forth. I was walking around out in the wind (like an idiot) helping to get all the other trcuks and combines under cover when I realized that Hey, these sheds have tin roofs and if one of those sheets come loose it could act as a really effective knife blade. This was well before my interest in turning and anyway, all that was downed was cottonwood, not all that good of a turning wood from what I hear.

I wouldn't bother, Arch. The stains are organic, not mineral. The amounts of heavier metal salts available in the tree are extremely small, especially when compared to calcium, which, in abundance, solubility of salt and electronegativity (think of your water softener) is the source of what is commonly regarded as "mineral stain" in wood. Which is why the oft-cited, but poorly read FPL file mentions mineral stain as a product of injury to the tree, and its composition as predominantly calcium oxalate (yep, trees with kidney stones). Strangely, if a mineral is dissolved in water, it tends to stay in water until concentrated and converted chemically in the leaves. Injury, which damages the normal transpiration path, can produce areas of slower flow which may cause concentration, as can the convoluted grain around embedded branches. Look around your cedar branches for those greenish areas, for instance, or the green stains in the injured heartwood of the birch I turned the other day. Or, once again referring to the FPL text, the most common mineral stained tree - hard maple.

Oh yes, and that's also why, when you stop and think, bluestain is a fungus, not a mineral stain. It's in the sapwood where the water moves best, and, of course, it doesn't accumulate and stain the after the transpirational "pull" is ended with the felling and limbing of the tree.

Ahhh, I figured you didn't actually want an answer but something to argue over (yet again). I took the chance and got burned by it (yet again as well). Some of what you say below is true. But, of course, you write it in a way as to suggest that what I said is wrong. For example, in no way did I say anything about the coloration of Flame Box Elder as being not organic. You asked what mineral caused the staining and I told you what research has said is most likely causing it. That does NOT mean that a mineral is leaving traces of itself and it is the direct and only cause of color, for example. I said that it's the trees' (wood cells) reaction to those minerals that are causing it. The coloration in this particular case of Flame Box Elder is organic caused by the types of minerals and this specific trees' reaction to it. How can I try to discuss something with you if your main reason for participating is to twist it and misrepresent what I say?

I'll stand by my statements, assertions and the whitepaper from the FPL (which you are correct as being poorly read and perhaps considered to be the only/main resource on the subject by many ... or at least one) as well as the research papers by many state and federal agencies along with educational institutions that actually lay out what is happening and why. For those that are actually interested in this topic with an open mind, I encourage a simple internet search. There's not as many of the papers and research available for free on this topic as there once was online but there are still many.

I had hoped that a discussion of this topic would have been possible as there is just a lot of poor information thrown around on the wood coloration issue. It's not just a simple thing as many (including, I believe, you) like to think it is. I don't think an honest and open discussion can happen between us. You can certainly ask questions of me and I will give you my best answers based on my own experience in the wood coloration industry. But I'll know that you really aren't interested in nothing but spouting your own twists and, well, "interesting" ideas on the research and work of others. Hopefully, others can benefit if not you.

- Andrew

Growing up I used to hear my Dad refer to "Piss Elm". I always thought it was some sort of fictional wood. I guess it wasn't after all. Guys, always listen to your Dads.

Barry